rec.autos.simulators

Nascar3 preview from daytona

Tim Rivar

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by Tim Rivar » Wed, 31 Mar 1999 04:00:00

The human eye can only see 30fps
so what difference does it make?


> > On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:05:20 -0000,


> > >They're not going to make the same mistake as they did in GPL and limit the
> > >frame rates, are they?

> > Why is that a 'mistake'? It seems smooth enough, to me, and I
> > am a frame-rate fanatic.

> It's kind of a waste, don't you think, when we have the hardware to run the game
> at 45fps+, but we're stuck at only 37. Some people, can get 37fps all the time,
> which means if there wasn't a limiter, it'd be even higher and look even better.

=Gunslinge

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by =Gunslinge » Wed, 31 Mar 1999 04:00:00



Not always. i do computer work for a local optometrist.
I have this visual problem where if a screen is at less than 85 hz I
get serious head aches. He told me my problem was that I have
sensitive speed problems. He said some people can actually see
discrepancies in fast moving objects better than others. I asked him
about FPS in a sim and he said some people can see differences between
90 fps and 100 fps...
To see if you are "Speed Tolerant" do this little test.. Get a ceiling
fan and turn it own to full speed. Without tracking the blades, see if
you can actually see the individual blades moving without trying. I
can and sometimes it is annoying as hell.
Or, look to the right or left of your monitor.. Without looking
directly at the screen see if you can see a flicker.
If I put my monitor on 60 hz I get a serious migraine in about 5
minutes flat.

--
-Gunslinger-

schwab

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by schwab » Wed, 31 Mar 1999 04:00:00

So Gunny... one question then: are you the kind of guy who can see and
dodge speeding bullets?? :-) Anyway, what seems like a liability
monitor-wise, could be cool in real life... you notice you're able to
see things that others can't? And please don't tell me you can see the
individual wingbeats of a hummingbird... if you can, then we'd have to
send you to a government lab for testing! :-)

--Dave




> >The human eye can only see 30fps
> >so what difference does it make?

> Not always. i do computer work for a local optometrist.
> I have this visual problem where if a screen is at less than 85 hz I
> get serious head aches. He told me my problem was that I have
> sensitive speed problems. He said some people can actually see
> discrepancies in fast moving objects better than others. I asked him
> about FPS in a sim and he said some people can see differences between
> 90 fps and 100 fps...
> To see if you are "Speed Tolerant" do this little test.. Get a ceiling
> fan and turn it own to full speed. Without tracking the blades, see if
> you can actually see the individual blades moving without trying. I
> can and sometimes it is annoying as hell.
> Or, look to the right or left of your monitor.. Without looking
> directly at the screen see if you can see a flicker.
> If I put my monitor on 60 hz I get a serious migraine in about 5
> minutes flat.

> --
> -Gunslinger-


--
Dave Schwabe
The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
http://users.wi.net/~schwabe
Trip

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by Trip » Wed, 31 Mar 1999 04:00:00

It's an individual thing. Some folks can't see the difference between 20 and 30 fps,
some can see the difference between 80 and 85. Not everyone is the same.

Trips


> The human eye can only see 30fps
> so what difference does it make?



> > > On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:05:20 -0000,


> > > >They're not going to make the same mistake as they did in GPL and limit the
> > > >frame rates, are they?

> > > Why is that a 'mistake'? It seems smooth enough, to me, and I
> > > am a frame-rate fanatic.

> > It's kind of a waste, don't you think, when we have the hardware to run the game
> > at 45fps+, but we're stuck at only 37. Some people, can get 37fps all the time,
> > which means if there wasn't a limiter, it'd be even higher and look even better.

Troy Robinso

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by Troy Robinso » Wed, 31 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Yup, this is true... I work as an animator for a living, and trust me, you
get VERY good at being able to tell frame rates, and even counting frames.
(I swear I can tell you the frame rate up to about 60fps just by looking at
it)


>It's an individual thing. Some folks can't see the difference between 20
and 30 fps,
>some can see the difference between 80 and 85. Not everyone is the same.

>Trips


>> The human eye can only see 30fps
>> so what difference does it make?

John Walla

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by John Walla » Thu, 01 Apr 1999 04:00:00



Cool - you just set your monitor refresh rate to 30hz and keep on
dreamin'....

Cheers!
John

Drake Christens

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by Drake Christens » Thu, 01 Apr 1999 04:00:00

I need to save this off so I can copy and paste it :-)

Depending on the phosphor persistence, 30 fps is where high-90-something
percent of people *stops seeing flicker*.  That's very different than "30
fps is all the eye can detect."  And that's with an interlaced display.  
With non-interlaced displays, the high-90% cutoff is 72 fps.  That's
supported by studies in Switzerland and 72 fps VESA displays were widely
advertised in the early 1990s.  With film, 24 fps is where most people
stop seeing flicker.

The human eye/brain can detect faster frame rates.  Some film makers have
run tests as high as 70 fps.  Audiences reported that the faster frame
rates looked much more realistic.  At the highest frame rates, the
incidence of motion sickness while watching roller coaster material
skyrocketed.  This is caused by the eye being fooled into thinking it's
seeing real motion while the inner ear is reporting that the person is
sitting still.  That discrepancy causes vertigo in many people.

In addition to the eye, a faster frame rate affects a sims response to
controls.  The higher frame rate allows more precise control.  I've seen
reports of some limited tests using Quake and the test subjects were able
to discern the faster frame rate 100% of the time.

You may be able to test this yourself.  Recently, I worked on a flight
sim.  In the debug build frame rates of 30 fps were common with one plane
on the screen.  In the release build we saw 70+ fps.  The 30 fps looked
pretty good, but 70 fps was noticeably smoother.  If you can find a sim
where you can crank up the detail and change the frame rate you should be
able to see this for yourself.


=Gunslinge

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by =Gunslinge » Thu, 01 Apr 1999 04:00:00



ROFLMAO!

Try Pong.. I get about 500 FPS

--
-Gunslinger-

David Swobod

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by David Swobod » Thu, 01 Apr 1999 04:00:00

Douglas Trumble, of SFX fame (2001, Close Encounters. . .) Started a Motion
Picture company called SHOWSCAN many years ago. It is now used in motion
simulator rides (go to Las Vegas for vacation) and runs 60fps. It was
supposed to be used in the Major motion picture, Brainstorm, but wasn't. You
only need 16-18 fps for persistance of vision to kick in, but when you give
the eyes/brain MORE images it makes a much more immersive effect. Go on one
of those rides and you will see the effect it has on your vision.



>>The human eye can only see 30fps
>>so what difference does it make?

>Cool - you just set your monitor refresh rate to 30hz and keep on
>dreamin'....

>Cheers!
>John

Byron Forbe

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by Byron Forbe » Fri, 02 Apr 1999 04:00:00

Yeah, I pulled out Indy 500 - The simulation the other day and fired
it up on the ole P11 450 and could easily see the difference between 273
and 274 frames/sec. No worries at all! I'm not personally going to
bother getting another sim until they can guarantee 300 fps minimum!

> Yup, this is true... I work as an animator for a living, and trust me, you
> get VERY good at being able to tell frame rates, and even counting frames.
> (I swear I can tell you the frame rate up to about 60fps just by looking at
> it)


> >It's an individual thing. Some folks can't see the difference between 20
> and 30 fps,
> >some can see the difference between 80 and 85. Not everyone is the same.

> >Trips


> >> The human eye can only see 30fps
> >> so what difference does it make?

gdf1

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by gdf1 » Sat, 03 Apr 1999 04:00:00



>The human eye can only see 30fps
>so what difference does it make?



>> > On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:05:20 -0000,


>> > >They're not going to make the same mistake as they did in GPL and limit the
>> > >frame rates, are they?

>> > Why is that a 'mistake'? It seems smooth enough, to me, and I
>> > am a frame-rate fanatic.

>> It's kind of a waste, don't you think, when we have the hardware to run the game
>> at 45fps+, but we're stuck at only 37. Some people, can get 37fps all the time,
>> which means if there wasn't a limiter, it'd be even higher and look even better.

There is a big difference! The eye can only FOCUS at 30fps, but that
doesn't mean we can't SEE things moving faster than 30fps. Anything
about that helps to give the illusion of 'speed'.
gdf1

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by gdf1 » Sat, 03 Apr 1999 04:00:00



>Yeah, I pulled out Indy 500 - The simulation the other day and fired
>it up on the ole P11 450 and could easily see the difference between 273
>and 274 frames/sec. No worries at all! I'm not personally going to
>bother getting another sim until they can guarantee 300 fps minimum!


>> Yup, this is true... I work as an animator for a living, and trust me, you
>> get VERY good at being able to tell frame rates, and even counting frames.
>> (I swear I can tell you the frame rate up to about 60fps just by looking at
>> it)


>> >It's an individual thing. Some folks can't see the difference between 20
>> and 30 fps,
>> >some can see the difference between 80 and 85. Not everyone is the same.

>> >Trips


>> >> The human eye can only see 30fps
>> >> so what difference does it make?

The good old Pentium II 450?

I guess you think my Pentium 166 with 32MB of RAM in ancient, right?

And you'd be correct! ;-)

gdf1

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by gdf1 » Sat, 03 Apr 1999 04:00:00



>> The human eye can only see 30fps
>> so what difference does it make?

>Used to think the same way.

>Try playing Quake 2 on your system... probably an average of 30-40fps on
>low end systems.  Install Quake 1 on the same system, and move around at
>the 75 fps it runs at on an equal system.

>If you cannot sense the difference in fluidity of action, then you're
>blind.

>Also, when it comes to multiplayer, 30fps is _NOT_ a constant.  The more
>processing time devoted to other things like AI, competitors, more to draw
>on the screen, etc., detracts from your 30fps average.  You end up getting
>more like 10-15.  I get constant 37fps ratings in GPL... until I have 5
>other cars on the grid in front of me.  And I am running 1024x768
>(Voodoo2's SLI).

>30fps is also a method based on 'suspension of disbelief' related to movie
>film type media.

>This comes nowhere close to the detail and output rate that is demanded by
>todays computer graphics systems.

>-j.c.h.

What is your processing power?
UnserFan

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by UnserFan » Sun, 04 Apr 1999 04:00:00

Kinda like my consistent 60 fps on CPR.  Talk about a really good sensation of
speed!  DAMN!  I feel like I'm flying from in-car!

Dan Belcher
Team Racing Unlimited

gdf1

Nascar3 preview from daytona

by gdf1 » Sun, 04 Apr 1999 04:00:00


CPR is another good example of why frame rates play such an important
part in a racing game.


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