rec.autos.simulators

by **Christoph Schirme** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 06:18:09

That former post was sent a bit too fast, so here an edited version,
sorry for the confusion.

> > > Actually writing here is cumbersome, but thanks ot your hints I
got
> > it
> > > working via google. Although it is irritating that new posts can
> take
> > > hours to be visible.

> > Try http://www.racesimcentral.net/ there's only about a 5 minute
delay
> > and the thread context is retained.

> > > It would also be much better if questions were put into the
FILSCA
> > > forum because there is the central place to find information. But
> > maybe
> > > you are willing to provide questions and as far as available
> answers
> > > for a FAQ, Art? :-)

> > But wouldn't that be preaching to the choir? It's fair to say that
> > Ken's query was prompted by the more public discussion. There's
been
> a
> > couple other who've replied to this thread with "never heard of
> them".
> > Everybody's free to use your public forums of course but I presume
> > there's a wider viewing audience here.

> Don't get me wrong: I don't think that the FILSCA forum is preaching
to
> the choir, but its the first place where people seek information.
That
> is something different. And those people do maybe not google for
> further information.

Deleted "simply a matter of power", replace with: It is simply a matter
of man power to collect all that and put it up on the FILSCA site.

- Show quoted text -

But of course it is also the job of FILSCA to attract drivers and teams
to convince the leagues. But so far we do not want to interfere with
the leagues, and the mediation is done by the leagues themselves. Maybe
that is a disadvantage of a club where the members have full power, but
that is the freedom within a club in difference to a corporate
approach.

- Show quoted text -

there are not even enough

- Show quoted text -

by **mcewen** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:03:51

Yes I probably aim, it's hard to think of a real life example (part of
the reason I have a hard time with the restriction). Back when CART
was on the rise and looking for venues outside the US it was at least
partially sanctioned by USAC (but mostly it was both league and
sanctioning body), I think FIA (the sanctioning body) threatened to ban
any driver and team who competed in F1 (the league) from competing in
any other series. It sounded petty and vindictive then and there was
real money involved.

You're asking that leagues follow human rights but you're reserving the
right to be autocratic, you don't see a contradiction there?

BTW I'm not even sure how a race league could violate human rights? I
suppose there are certain logistical considerations if drivers can't
converse in a common language that might cause a restriction.

Ever read Catch-22? ;)

by **Christoph Schirme** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:19:50

> >Sorry, but now your are trying to change arguments.

> Yes I probably aim, it's hard to think of a real life example (part
of
> the reason I have a hard time with the restriction). Back when CART
> was on the rise and looking for venues outside the US it was at least
> partially sanctioned by USAC (but mostly it was both league and
> sanctioning body), I think FIA (the sanctioning body) threatened to
ban
> any driver and team who competed in F1 (the league) from competing in
> any other series. It sounded petty and vindictive then and there was
> real money involved.

I can imagine that that happened - but you have now the statutes and
charter, leagues are independent, so only a league could do that (F1 in
our example), and drivers could team up and complain about the league
at FILSCA :-)

I don't take the autocratic, and are you sure that human rights include
elections? I don't think so, quite a few countries would not have
signed them otherwise :-) No I would be happy if the club could be
fully set up. But as this still is something that concerns only the
members, I do not discuss this here.

For example, if you exclude drivers from your league by race, or gender
etc.

Of course. Ever read the basics of a club?

by **Tony Rickar** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:09:44

> It would also be much better if questions were put into the FILSCA
> forum because there is the central place to find information. But maybe
> you are willing to provide questions and as far as available answers
> for a FAQ, Art? :-)

Quite frankly if the majority of the usenet forum for sim racing haven't
ever heard of FILSCA since its formation in 2001, as this thread may
suggest, quite how the same organisation is going to "market sim-racing to
the world" I am not sure.

I don't want to appear negative as the assistance to leagues, tools provided
and the recent publications have all been useful, but the aspirations of a
sanctioning body acting as the "face" of our hobby just haven't been
remotely realised.

by **Byron Forbe** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:51:24

>> I have virtually no opinion of FLISCA at present, but i know that i
> wouldnt
>> walk into a shop and ask for a magazine thats calling itself ASS.

> Well, for the sake of correctness, the magazine is called AutoSimSport
> which makes reference to a famous auto magazine. And the official
> abbreviation is A.S.S. - all were very aware of how that could sound.
> But: it's really your freedom to make one word of it. Honi soit qui mal
> y pense. :-)

> Next, A.S.S. has just a special relationship to FILSCA, and otherwise
> acts on its behalf.

It stinks!

by **Byron Forbe** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:06:21

> >The rules are sent to any applicant (sorry Art, still no
>> mail from you re. your league, so you do not have received the rules

Like leagues that wish to attract drivers, you need to make everything
simple to understand and easy to join. All this under the table stuff is
ridiculous - no wonder there's all this paranoia about - it looks like
you're hiding something. And you are! I'd get rid of all that nonsense ASAP.

As it is most league admins are probably umming and ahhing about joining
anyway. Making things difficult as you do just makes them forget you and
just get on with their own leagues. KISS. (ask what this means at your own
risk).

by **Christoph Schirme** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:29:30

> > It would also be much better if questions were put into the FILSCA
> > forum because there is the central place to find information. But
maybe
> > you are willing to provide questions and as far as available
answers
> > for a FAQ, Art? :-)

> Quite frankly if the majority of the usenet forum for sim racing
haven't
> ever heard of FILSCA since its formation in 2001, as this thread may
> suggest, quite how the same organisation is going to "market
sim-racing to
> the world" I am not sure.

> I don't want to appear negative as the assistance to leagues, tools
provided
> and the recent publications have all been useful, but the aspirations
of a
> sanctioning body acting as the "face" of our hobby just haven't been
> remotely realised.

Yes, it's a long way. But "sanctioning body" does not mean "God", and
even of them as we know are many around :-). It just means that all
races of all FILSCA member leagues are "sanctioned" - and you can take
this as a loose group label (e.g. it means that all leagues apply the
FILSCA driving behavior code, it means that their races are featured at
the FILSCA web site, that their drivers have the career stats, and that
the teams get their stats, that e.g. there is volunteer who checks
their results and points them to errors etc. - I do not see anything
bad about it, but you better ask the member league if they see anything
bad about being "sanctioned"). I think it is a great service for the
drivers the teams and the leagues what is done, and I think a group of
people from the community working together can achieve more - and
easier and cheaper - for themselves than if they were doing everything
alone, or than if they were an outside corporation - and I also think
it would be good if revenues - if there are - could stay directly
within the people who have the fun. You may disagree or not, but you
are also not forced to join. Of course you need some "outer
identification" for this as well. And if you want to stay outside, then
you are not bothered. So even if you think "sanctioning body" means we
are thinking we are the "gods" of simracing - which is not the case -,
you can always have other "gods". :-) I think that's giving away a
chance, but that is really my opinion.

by **Christoph Schirme** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:31:15

You may always tell that the AutoSimSport staff:
http://forums.filsca.com/index.php?showforum=54

> >> I have virtually no opinion of FLISCA at present, but i know that
i
> > wouldnt
> >> walk into a shop and ask for a magazine thats calling itself ASS.

> > Well, for the sake of correctness, the magazine is called
AutoSimSport
> > which makes reference to a famous auto magazine. And the official
> > abbreviation is A.S.S. - all were very aware of how that could
sound.
> > But: it's really your freedom to make one word of it. Honi soit qui
mal
> > y pense. :-)

> > Next, A.S.S. has just a special relationship to FILSCA, and
otherwise
> > acts on its behalf.

> It stinks!

by **Shrapne** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:42:36

That may be so, but I can agree with Christoph here, AutoSimSport is not a
"FILSCA Newsletter" it is an independant magazine for the simracing
community, written for the whole community and not just FILSCA member
leagues.

It features FILSCA race reports and results, but this is a small part of the
whole. The magazine as it stands is trying to cover as broad a spread of
the simracing community as we can.

Jon.
P.S: Anyway, this is not really anything to do with this discussion! :o)

by **Ron Ayto** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:25:54

When guys i used to race with back in 2000-2001 first mentioned the idea of
a central governing body for sim racing, (which incidentally was the
pre-formation of FILSCA), i looked at it as a bunch of wanna-bees trying to
gain control of my leisure time hobby. I didn't like the idea then, and i
don't like the idea now.
I will not have a cental governing group, wether it's democratically or
other-wise selected telling me how i should or shouldn't conduct myself, or
my club when i/we race on-line.
Ranks and other suck ***are all ego boosters for the few that like to see
their names in lights.
Whatever, go for it.
I personally, will never allow a few so-called sim experts to in any way
influence me on how i use my sims or on-line racing time.
I might feel a touch more generous to the idea if a central group were
democratically elected on a yearly bassis, with fully open-to-all voting,
but so far, all i have seen or heard of this elite group of self-proclaimed
"Kings of Sims", is their undying belief in their own holier than thou
attitude.
Take it or leave it, but for me, i don't need someone to tell me my rank,
how good i am, how bad i am, if i am safe to drive against, if i am as slow
as a snail, or as fast as lightening.
Reminds me of a story... The Pied Piper comes to mind...

Cheers,
Ron

by **Christoph Schirme** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:32:17

It also features the member leagues and the drivers, and it is part of
the initial FILSCA package.
You can simply see it as one activity inthat goes far beyond the FILSCA
limitation to league online racing - it is one result of group work.

Apart from that AutoSimSport is its own entity, and the relationship
FILSCA - AutoSimSport is up to FILSCA and AutoSimSport, but surely
FILSCA does not involve in the name.

So you can also see it for the many forms of cooperation which are
possible.

> > It stinks!

> That may be so, but I can agree with Christoph here, AutoSimSport is
not a
> "FILSCA Newsletter" it is an independant magazine for the simracing
> community, written for the whole community and not just FILSCA member
> leagues.

> It features FILSCA race reports and results, but this is a small part
of the
> whole. The magazine as it stands is trying to cover as broad a
spread of
> the simracing community as we can.

> Jon.
> P.S: Anyway, this is not really anything to do with this discussion!

:o)

by **Christoph Schirme** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:57:49

You find the KISS versions at the FILSCA site:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Next, I don't find it unsimple, but only fair not to tell you any
bullshit or give you promises without providing complete information.
You may call that a bad sales strategy, or not simple. This is not a
company that wants to sell something, this is an adventure and an
enterprise that wants to see if a large group of diverse people
embedding within the sim racing community can seriously work on
something. I do not want to hide that, even if that may require you to
read a bit more and be more concentrated in doing so. And it is only
legitimate to keep the more formal things within the members - apart
from that anyone sees them before he/she joins.

Should there be really a reason to worry about someone who can't even
click a link to require more information?

If you think there is something hidden - be happy with your ***
theory.
But fact is: any league is invited to join, and anyone is getting all
information before he/she joins. There is nothing hidden to those who
are affected. And it is just good behavior and education not to wash
internal clothes outside the members area.

As I said: some issues in the statutes need to be revised, and there is
surely no sense in publishing something where the leagues do not have
had the chance to discuss this exensively. Once that is done, t will
be publicly available anyway.

> > >The rules are sent to any applicant (sorry Art, still no
> >> mail from you re. your league, so you do not have received the
rules

> Like leagues that wish to attract drivers, you need to make
everything
> simple to understand and easy to join. All this under the table stuff
is
> ridiculous - no wonder there's all this paranoia about - it looks
like
> you're hiding something. And you are! I'd get rid of all that
nonsense ASAP.

> As it is most league admins are probably umming and ahhing about
joining
> anyway. Making things difficult as you do just makes them forget you
and
> just get on with their own leagues. KISS. (ask what this means at
your own
> risk).

by **Christoph Schirme** » Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:04:19

Now please do me a favor, and show me where anyone involved in FILSCA
has claimed to be or be part of "the kings of sims".

Unlike some other ranking site we don't even claim to represent
everyone. You always find a "FILSCA" prefix there.

And please take a second, a minute, or even a day to think about this:
you have a group of mates with whom you go out for a beer once a week.
Do you think it appropriate if some one denies your right to do that,
or do you think it is appropriate to call them wannabee beer ***ers,
or to insinuate that they drink away all the beer that the others want?

A club is nothing more like that - be it that they go out for beer
drinking or be it that the use some common applications, present them
at a web site, have fun in racing sims, and maybe help each other with
their daily work.

Thank you for your consideration.

Christoph Schirmer

> > Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA
thing?

> > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it?

> > Cheers.

> > Bombshell.

> When guys i used to race with back in 2000-2001 first mentioned the
idea of
> a central governing body for sim racing, (which incidentally was the
> pre-formation of FILSCA), i looked at it as a bunch of wanna-bees
trying to
> gain control of my leisure time hobby. I didn't like the idea then,
and i
> don't like the idea now.
> I will not have a cental governing group, wether it's democratically
or
> other-wise selected telling me how i should or shouldn't conduct
myself, or
> my club when i/we race on-line.
> Ranks and other suck ***are all ego boosters for the few that like
to see
> their names in lights.
> Whatever, go for it.
> I personally, will never allow a few so-called sim experts to in any
way
> influence me on how i use my sims or on-line racing time.
> I might feel a touch more generous to the idea if a central group
were
> democratically elected on a yearly bassis, with fully open-to-all
voting,
> but so far, all i have seen or heard of this elite group of
self-proclaimed
> "Kings of Sims", is their undying belief in their own holier than
thou
> attitude.
> Take it or leave it, but for me, i don't need someone to tell me my
rank,
> how good i am, how bad i am, if i am safe to drive against, if i am
as slow
> as a snail, or as fast as lightening.
> Reminds me of a story... The Pied Piper comes to mind...

> Cheers,
> Ron

by **mcewen** » Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:06:27

I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small
groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will inevitably
go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move on,
retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 setups
recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems like
the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd propose
it's worth paying a small fee to maintain).

Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an
orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I imagine
there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the
non-member player.

Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the moment
they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even if they
were. However neither can change from the outside.

by **Tony Rickar** » Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:51:26

> I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small
> groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will inevitably
> go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move on,
> retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 setups
> recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems like
> the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd propose
> it's worth paying a small fee to maintain).

I disagree. I believe the fan sites will remain whilst there is sufficient
interest. Sure some may come and go, but I don't believe people will be
prepared to pay for the co-ordination of fan sites. There is a tremendous
amount of man hours and commitment going into the mods and so on.

Going back a long while I belong to a motor club in the UK, which in itself
was affiliated to a regional association of motor clubs with its own set of
regional rules. This assocation was amember of the RAC motor sports
association (RACSMA).

To perform any form of motor sports I had to have an RACSMA competition
licence. This licence would have many levels such that to rally in a
national championship you needed regional experience etc. A "misbehaving"
driver could have his licence suspended.

The RACSMA provided the basic rules and requirements for the clubs and
provided a policing function both for clubs (to ensure their events were
properly run) and the drivers (to ensure they acted appropriately)

This allowed the motor club for which I belonged to run national events and
for their drivers to compete in other clubs events with a common umbrella
organisation.

This is where I see FILSCA or a similar organisation. Not a club - that is
the grass roots level - but an association of clubs providing common
standards, organising championships and events and a means of maintaining
driving standards.

Without some form of regional, national and international championships I
see no real reason for such an association. My motor club would have run
fine on its own if it just catered for its members and had no legal
obligation to subscribe.

The GPL league I race in runs superbly with excellent league admin, rules,
agreement processes and quality drivers, so I and the league have no need
for anything more. Which may be a reason the appetite for an association
seems weak.

However, unlike your local tennis club where you can be the local hero of a
membership group spanning just a few miles, sim racing tends to be world
wide. Maybe the opportunity to localise sim racing into local championships,
extending to regional, national and international could be the route forward
for developing interest. There aren't many other sports where you compete
with the world's best at a club level.

Food for thought maybe.

Cheers
Tony

rec.autos.simulators

What do you think of FILSCA?

What do you think of FILSCA?

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What do you think of FILSCA?

What do you think of FILSCA?

What do you think of FILSCA?

What do you think of FILSCA?

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What do you think of FILSCA?

What do you think of FILSCA?

What do you think of FILSCA?

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What do you think of FILSCA?