rec.autos.simulators

Inside a simulator question

Ian Mars

Inside a simulator question

by Ian Mars » Thu, 25 May 2000 04:00:00

Hi,

I was wondering if we could a (more scientific) thread going on how
the internals of such a game are constructed, if anyone knows.

What are the basic elements and how do they interact ?  People talk
about the physics model, what does this actually mean, modelling the
motion of body under Newtonian forces ? I realise it's complex with
friction etc.

Maybe i should say I have a degree in Physics and Computer science so
might be able to understand the theory but have little intuition to
how the internals of something like GP2/GPL could look like. I would
guess the code is a marriage of some modelling with the track
itself. The AI aspect is interesting but not exactly central.

What would be nice would a public domain implementation of a body
undergoing forces like acceleration, braking etc that we could look
at. please send a URL (code pointers) if you have any.

--
Ian

Neil

Inside a simulator question

by Neil » Thu, 25 May 2000 04:00:00

As I mentioned in a post a couple of days ago, I've just set up
a website (early days still!) that tries to cover some of
the 'physics modelling' issues.  More detail will be added soon.

www.callnet0800.co.uk/myhome/nreverett/gplindex.htm

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Neil

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Ian Mars

Inside a simulator question

by Ian Mars » Thu, 25 May 2000 04:00:00


> As I mentioned in a post a couple of days ago, I've just set up
> a website (early days still!) that tries to cover some of
> the 'physics modelling' issues.  More detail will be added soon.

> www.callnet0800.co.uk/myhome/nreverett/gplindex.htm

> Hope this helps.

It does, thanks alot Neil.

I.

--
Ian

JTW620

Inside a simulator question

by JTW620 » Thu, 25 May 2000 04:00:00

  Ian, I've been recently coding a model that works quite well (if I do say so
myself).  The "GPL-Handling Question -Physics model" thread is a place to look
for a discussion on a problem I was having calculating tire forces correctly.
I just posted a lengthy reply that gets into the problems in detail.  It also
contains the general workings of the model.  

If you're interested in seeing it, you'll need to set your Preferences to not
block out any long messages.  It shows up as  "GPL-Handling Question -Physics
model  Warning, long post".
Cheers,
Todd Wasson
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

Michael E. Carve

Inside a simulator question

by Michael E. Carve » Thu, 25 May 2000 04:00:00


% Hi,

% I was wondering if we could a (more scientific) thread going on how
% the internals of such a game are constructed, if anyone knows.

While it is not detailed about the code, there was an interview with
David Kaemmer by John O'Keefe that "touches" on this.  The URL is

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~richardn/Kaemmer.html

Here is the part about what is modeled in GPL:

Could you give people insight into how complex the Grand Prix Legends
simulation is? For example I heard somewhere that you model the airflow
into or through the engine? What are some of the most complex aspects of
GPL?

For the engines, I use a model for engine friction that I got from a
couple of SAE papers--the friction is a function of inlet valve
diameter, stroke length, etc.--and it seems to be pretty close (we have
data for all these parameters for each of the cars). The most complex
aspects of GPL...? How much time do you have? :-) The multi-body
simulation is very accurate--each GPL car is made up of the chassis, the
fuel mass (which changes), four wheels with independent hops and spins,
an engine & flywheel rotor, clutch & transmission input shaft, transfer
shaft, and output shaft. Each of these bodies maintains its own linear
and angular momentum, basically. You can see some of this if you watch
the car land on its top after flying through the air (and who hasn't
seen this?)--just when the car lands, you'll see the wheels each
continue to travel downwards until the springs stop them. If you jump
the car in the air (the 'Ring--woohoo), you can see all the gyroscopic
effects that occur when you turn the steering wheel in mid-flight, or
stay on the throttle, or jump on the brakes (doh). Some might say this
is overkill, but not those of us who know the kink before Schwedenkreuz.
:-) The tire model is also extremely complex and accurate. There has
been a lot of excellent work recently by those who have PhD's in the
physics of tire and *** friction, and we have incorporated a lot of
that into the current model. The differential deserves some
mention--notice that with a near open diff (85/85, with 1 clutch), you
have no trouble getting inside rear wheelspin. Or try starting with one
wheel on the grass and one on the road. The constraints which apply
within the drivetrain are non-trivial. The collision system is pretty
complex--and that's an understatement. Outside of the physics, obviously
the graphics system is pretty complex, the multiplayer system design,
the AI--I can't do anything but scratch the surface here, but suffice it
to say that the GPL model is several orders of magnitude more complex
than anything we've done before.

<snip>

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Don Scurlo

Inside a simulator question

by Don Scurlo » Thu, 25 May 2000 04:00:00

Sorry I can't be more specific, but I believe that there is an open
source simulation project going on that would be a good place to see
the "guts" of the game. Try a Deja News search, or maybe someone can
respond with an url.


--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.

Kevin Gavit

Inside a simulator question

by Kevin Gavit » Thu, 25 May 2000 04:00:00


Don, I believe you are thinking of Dr. Paul Hoad's project. This is the URL:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/paulhoad/glGP/index.html

This is not truely an open source project. Source is not available on a
download at will basis. Paul is soliciting people to help, but at the moment
the source is his, and effectively closed and therefore not available as a
purely curiosity driven object. It is a principal of the project that source
will EVENTUALLY go open.

As a member of the Linux/Open Source "community" I am, however, aware of a
number of driving sim/games under way.

Anyone interested can go here: http://freshmeat.net/ and search around. Some
of these are multiplatform, but some are Linux only. Source should be
readily  available for all of them.

These are just the public projects. I'm personally aware of a number of
projects along this line that havn't "gone public" yet.

Personally I'm hoping that within a couple of years or so driving sims will
have effectively "gone open source."

This will have a number of effects on the sim community, not the least of
which is that for a commercial vendor to compete for actual dollars they'll
have to give us somthing REALLY special to pry the cold hard cash from our
pockets.


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