rec.autos.simulators

by **Matthew B.Knutse** » Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:00:00

> Matthew Knutsen started me off on this one by mentioning tyre
> temperatures 8-)

> In F1RS you are given the tyre temperatures at 3 points across the tyre.
> This is a nice touch, and helps you to get the camber setting right, by
> getting these temperatures as equal as possible.

> BUT...it just occurred to me, that the tyre temp. can also help with
> wing settings, can't it? If the wing is too little, or too much, then
> the tyre temp. will rise (I think!).

> SO...does anyone know the _OPTIMUM_ tyre temps. for the various
> compounds? (A,B,C,D)

> I would be very grateful to anyone who could post them.
> --
> Cheers,
> Richard.

> Richard UNDERSCORE Beckett AT ecid DOT cig DOT mot DOT com

Awkay, I'll follow you up on it, but only with some "real-time"
experience:)
The tire temps are *not* necessarily a good guide to how your car is set
up. I am not an expert at this, but IRL we only use it as a guide to set
pressure. The only ways you can decide camber and Spring settings are
1) By driver input
2) Data logging
3) The Stopwatch
4) Calculations by computer (up to, say 90%)

Usually, you'll get a datasheet from the manufacturer stating the
preferred temps, and you try to stay within these, but the *real* way to
see how good the car is working is by looking at the ***,how it
wears, how even the wear & pattern is. If you look at f.i F1, or CART,
they sometimes run wild negative camber at the front...., and those
temps will swing quickly.
Besides, you also have the "top layer" temps, which are plain Spooky:)

So, I urge Papy to let us have a pic of the tires whenever we come in to
the garage in GPL, to see how they wear:))))
Uhm..well, maybe not on those skinny bicycle tires...

All Best,
Matt
--
------------------------------
Matthew Birger Patrick Knutsen
(http://www.racesimcentral.net/~matthebk)
"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
-Cale Yarborough
Cheek Racing Cars (http://www.racesimcentral.net/~kareknut/)

Please Remove "NoSpam" from my E-mail adress when replying!
-------------------------------

by **John Walla** » Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:00:00

On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:23:18 +0100, "Matthew B.Knutsen"

>Awkay, I'll follow you up on it, but only with some "real-time"
>experience:)
>The tire temps are *not* necessarily a good guide to how your car is set
>up. I am not an expert at this, but IRL we only use it as a guide to set
>pressure.

They are also used for setting camber, toe-in/toe-out, weight balance
(in formulae where this is an issue) and guidance for a number of
other settings. Most particularly camber, where you need to ascertain
the best setting in order to have the maximum amount of *** on the
track at a given moment.

Here we do have an advantage IMO, since ICR2 and N2 give us "live"
tyre temperature readings via F4. This is information denied to the
real guys, and IMO it would be nice to have this information only from
the garage when driving was stopped (or perhaps "live" info only in
testing, but not while racing?).

Cheers!
John

by **Kevin Hil** » Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:00:00

I run off of a beleif that tire temps usually settle down in the straights,
and if they settle down in the straights to an even temp, that means that
you are getting full contact on the contact patch of the tire DURING THE
STRAIGHTS. Now, I don't mind having lots of grip on the straights, but I
really need my contact patch to be 100% on the road during turns. I have
found that if I tune the cars to get even temperatures during a turn (Kind
of a tricky business), I get much better turning/grip performance out of
the tire.

-Kevin

> > Matthew Knutsen started me off on this one by mentioning tyre
> > temperatures 8-)

> > In F1RS you are given the tyre temperatures at 3 points across the
tyre.
> > This is a nice touch, and helps you to get the camber setting right, by
> > getting these temperatures as equal as possible.

> > BUT...it just occurred to me, that the tyre temp. can also help with
> > wing settings, can't it? If the wing is too little, or too much, then
> > the tyre temp. will rise (I think!).

> > SO...does anyone know the _OPTIMUM_ tyre temps. for the various
> > compounds? (A,B,C,D)

> > I would be very grateful to anyone who could post them.
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Richard.

> > Richard UNDERSCORE Beckett AT ecid DOT cig DOT mot DOT com

> Awkay, I'll follow you up on it, but only with some "real-time"
> experience:)
> The tire temps are *not* necessarily a good guide to how your car is set
> up. I am not an expert at this, but IRL we only use it as a guide to set
> pressure. The only ways you can decide camber and Spring settings are
> 1) By driver input
> 2) Data logging
> 3) The Stopwatch
> 4) Calculations by computer (up to, say 90%)

> Usually, you'll get a datasheet from the manufacturer stating the
> preferred temps, and you try to stay within these, but the *real* way to
> see how good the car is working is by looking at the ***,how it
> wears, how even the wear & pattern is. If you look at f.i F1, or CART,
> they sometimes run wild negative camber at the front...., and those
> temps will swing quickly.
> Besides, you also have the "top layer" temps, which are plain Spooky:)

> So, I urge Papy to let us have a pic of the tires whenever we come in to
> the garage in GPL, to see how they wear:))))
> Uhm..well, maybe not on those skinny bicycle tires...

> All Best,
> Matt
> --
> ------------------------------
> Matthew Birger Patrick Knutsen
> (http://www.racesimcentral.net/~matthebk)
> "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
> -Cale Yarborough
> Cheek Racing Cars (http://www.racesimcentral.net/~kareknut/)

> Please Remove "NoSpam" from my E-mail adress when replying!
> -------------------------------

by **Seatbel** » Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:00:00

Kevin Hill heeft geschreven in bericht

Do you mean the tires are cooled by groundcontact? I think it's a lesser
degree of friction that makes cars cooler on a straight.

Me too. :-)

How do you check the temperature in a turn in F1 RS? You can only check
temperature in the pit, unless I after reading the manual x times infinite
have missed it.

So is it really neccessary to set the camber so the temp is even over the
tire? ISn't it helping the turning in of a corner to set an assymmetrical
camber? As when there's >>> more left turn than right, to set the left tire
more vertical than the right, so the right tire pushes more on the nose and
the left is more of a pivoting point for the front tyres? Or am I talking
Ralf Schumacher = cobblers?

"On 5 August 1944 in the vicinity of St. Sever Calvados, France, witnessed a
German Mark V Panther tank knock out three M4 and three M5 tanks during and
after being hit by at least fif*** rounds of 75mm APC from a distance of
approximately 700 yards. All of these shells had ricochetted, with the
exception of a six***th round which finally put the Mark V Panther out of
action." Sgt. Thomas P. Welborn, Germany's Panther tank, the quest for
combat superiority by Thomas L. Jentz
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Matthew B.Knutse** » Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:00:00

> On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:23:18 +0100, "Matthew B.Knutsen"

> >Awkay, I'll follow you up on it, but only with some "real-time"
> >experience:)
> >The tire temps are *not* necessarily a good guide to how your car is set
> >up. I am not an expert at this, but IRL we only use it as a guide to set pressure.
> They are also used for setting camber, toe-in/toe-out, weight balance
> (in formulae where this is an issue) and guidance for a number of
> other settings. Most particularly camber, where you need to ascertain
> the best setting in order to have the maximum amount of *** on the
> track at a given moment.

I will stand corrected at the Toe- part, in a way. If you find that you
can't get the front tires up to temp, you may set a little toe-out. But
above all, all the other aspects are set by what the driver prefers.
You may also *not* want to have as much *** as possible on the track,
since it increases rolling resistance. In several one-make series, a
trick is to go wild on the front camber (say 4-5 deg neg) to reduce the
resistance on the straights. This can mean up to a couple of MPH, which
can be just what you need. On all the cars I've worked on (Formula
Fords, Camel Lights, F3000, Touring Cars), we always check temps when
the cars come in, note, and adjust to get temps even. But life is much
more complicated. Some tires are designed to work with different temps,
to run with so-and so camber..
One Example:
Me and a friend used to (well, still do) race an endurance series in a
heavily modified Mini Cooper. We had to use highway-legal tires, and we
got a good deal on Yokohamas, and they worked well. We got our car to
handle, and we had a hell of a season. At the end of the season, a guy
came up and offered us another brand of tires for free, If we gave him
some publicity. So, we brought his tires (well known brand), and ran
some laps in practice without adjusting anything. The car felt a little
different, but not much, and the lap times were the same. When I pitted
after 15 laps, I had the shock of my life: the temp on the outside of
the LF was 110degC, *after* entering the pits..and the other front was
about 100C, the rears were ok. Now, wear was dramatic, and the tire had
also rotated on the wheel, so we bolted on a set of our Yokos, tried the
same, and they were running nicely in the 80C range. So...Don't trust
your temps:))

Agreed 100%, by me it's cheatin':))))

Cheers,
Matt

--
------------------------------
Matthew Birger Patrick Knutsen
(http://www.racesimcentral.net/~matthebk)
"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
-Cale Yarborough
Cheek Racing Cars (http://www.racesimcentral.net/~kareknut/)

Please Remove "NoSpam" from my E-mail adress when replying!
-------------------------------

by **Michael E. Carve** » Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:00:00

<snip>
% Here we do have an advantage IMO, since ICR2 and N2 give us "live"
% tyre temperature readings via F4. This is information denied to the
% real guys, and IMO it would be nice to have this information only from
% the garage when driving was stopped (or perhaps "live" info only in
% testing, but not while racing?).

I maybe wrong, but I thought some NASCAR and CART teams had devices to
read tire temps while on the track. However, you are correct, I don't
think this is permissable during race conditions. I kinda miss the tire
wear indicators that were available in Papys's first sim. They showed
tire wear across the tire instead of the standard "worn" indicator that
is in ICR/NASCAR series. The combination of tire temps and which part
of the tire is wearing more than the other made for some fine tuning in
the setup. I sure would like to see them return to this combination.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **Seatbel** » Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:00:00

Michael E. Carver heeft geschreven in bericht

Going on on the measuring during driving, F1 teams do measure the heat build
up on the brake discs these days. Was this also done in 1996?

It can give valuable information about which tire brakes the most in a lap,
becasue that one would be the hottest one. With that kind of info, setting
the brake balance would be a lot easier than checking for wheel locks and
wheel speeds.

I don't know wether or not this is done during a grand prix or only during
qualifying or free practice.

"On 5 August 1944 in the vicinity of St. Sever Calvados, France, witnessed a
German Mark V Panther tank knock out three M4 and three M5 tanks during and
after being hit by at least fif*** rounds of 75mm APC from a distance of
approximately 700 yards. All of these shells had ricochetted, with the
exception of a six***th round which finally put the Mark V Panther out of
action." Sgt. Thomas P. Welborn, Germany's Panther tank, the quest for
combat superiority by Thomas L. Jentz
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **John Walla** » Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:00:00

I've certainly never seen or used such equipment if it does exist, and
can't even imagine how you would do it. Outboard it would need to run
across the inner, middle and outer sectiosn of the tyre, and in
contact with or close to the surface. We can see there isn't anything
there, apart from the problems of friction and any fouling of the tyre
that could happen. Mounting such equipment inboard seems impossible,
given the logistics and the extremely hostile environment.

Cheers!
John

by **Doug Arna** » Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:00:00

> >I maybe wrong, but I thought some NASCAR and CART teams had devices
> to
> >read tire temps while on the track.

> I've certainly never seen or used such equipment if it does exist, and

> can't even imagine how you would do it. Outboard it would need to run
> across the inner, middle and outer sectiosn of the tyre, and in
> contact with or close to the surface. We can see there isn't anything
> there, apart from the problems of friction and any fouling of the tyre

> that could happen. Mounting such equipment inboard seems impossible,
> given the logistics and the extremely hostile environment.

> Cheers!
> John

Hiya Johnny,

They use infrared sensors, 3 of them for each tire (inside, mid,
outside), logged on 3 channels of their data aquisition systems. It
gives them live running temps. They are quite small and normally mounted
on a temporary bracket of some kind. They don't need to be close at all
- just pointed accuratley - usually 6-10 inches away from the tire.
This is strictly a testing thing - not used during race weekends as a
full set uses up 12 channels of data :)

--Doug

by **Matthew B.Knutse** » Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:00:00

> > >I maybe wrong, but I thought some NASCAR and CART teams had devices
> > to
> > >read tire temps while on the track.

> > I've certainly never seen or used such equipment if it does exist, and

> > can't even imagine how you would do it. Outboard it would need to run
> > across the inner, middle and outer sectiosn of the tyre, and in
> > contact with or close to the surface. We can see there isn't anything
> > there, apart from the problems of friction and any fouling of the tyre

> > that could happen. Mounting such equipment inboard seems impossible,
> > given the logistics and the extremely hostile environment.

> > Cheers!
> > John

> Hiya Johnny,

> They use infrared sensors, 3 of them for each tire (inside, mid,
> outside), logged on 3 channels of their data aquisition systems. It
> gives them live running temps. They are quite small and normally mounted
> on a temporary bracket of some kind. They don't need to be close at all
> - just pointed accuratley - usually 6-10 inches away from the tire.
> This is strictly a testing thing - not used during race weekends as a
> full set uses up 12 channels of data :)

> --Doug

They were used in the GpC days - they traced Win Percys wild crash at
the Mulsanne straight down to a puncture from sensor readings on the
telemetry. As far as I can remember, though, they only had one temp
reading back then.

Matt
--
------------------------------
Matthew Birger Patrick Knutsen
(http://sofus.hiof.no/~matthebk)
"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
-Cale Yarborough
Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut/)

Please Remove "NoSpam" from my E-mail adress when replying!
-------------------------------

by **Doug Arna** » Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:00:00

> > They use infrared sensors, 3 of them for each tire (inside, mid,
> > outside), logged on 3 channels of their data aquisition systems. It

> > gives them live running temps. They are quite small and normally
> mounted
> > on a temporary bracket of some kind. They don't need to be close at
> all
> > - just pointed accuratley - usually 6-10 inches away from the tire.
> > This is strictly a testing thing - not used during race weekends as
> a
> > full set uses up 12 channels of data :)

> > --Doug

> They were used in the GpC days - they traced Win Percys wild crash at
> the Mulsanne straight down to a puncture from sensor readings on the
> telemetry. As far as I can remember, though, they only had one temp
> reading back then.

> Matt

Hi Matt,

Was he driving that "Nimrod" ?.......yeah, that was a heck of a ***
crash.....at the kink.

Back then a 12 channel data aquistion system was "big".... now 32 is
common.

--Doug

rec.autos.simulators

Optimum Tyre Temperatures.

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