rec.autos.simulators

OT: Real Engine Physics

Euan Gilmou

OT: Real Engine Physics

by Euan Gilmou » Fri, 07 Sep 2001 04:49:38

    Just a few real world questions I've had knocking about my head.

    Why is the V configuration generally better for race engines?  In F1 if
it's better to have a wider V angle for lower center of gravity lower
profile, etc. (ie. the Renault 110 degree engine) why doesn't somebody make
a horizontally opposed boxer?  If that isn't good why does it work well for
Porsche and Subaru?

    What are the advantages with a pushrod?  I understand they have a bit of
a lower center of gravity but have more moving parts and are heavier.  Why
are the still around?  I understand the NASCAR it's probably mandated and
maybe in Trans-Am but I think the C5-R and the Panoz also choose to run a
push rod, why?

TIA

Jason Mond

OT: Real Engine Physics

by Jason Mond » Fri, 07 Sep 2001 04:57:03

I heard you can get more low-end torque from a pushrod.  Not sure why.
Valves open - valves close.  Why would the mechanism for opening them
affect low-end torque?

Oh sure, I answer with a question :P


>     Just a few real world questions I've had knocking about my head.

>     What are the advantages with a pushrod?  I understand they have a bit of
> a lower center of gravity but have more moving parts and are heavier.  Why
> are the still around?  I understand the NASCAR it's probably mandated and
> maybe in Trans-Am but I think the C5-R and the Panoz also choose to run a
> push rod, why?

> TIA

--
Jason Monds
http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (GPL)
http://www.scprc.com - Stock Car Division of the PRC. (N4, Fun Run Sims)
(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)
Jonny Hodgso

OT: Real Engine Physics

by Jonny Hodgso » Fri, 07 Sep 2001 05:10:07


In F1 if

Packaging.  A straight-10 would be horrible to fit in!

somebody make

The Renault engine isn't working too well... I've heard mutterings
about airflow and inlets, given there's a central airbox.

Intakes, I suspect, and the fact that they're not quite so critical on
a road car.  Flat-12s have been done by Ferrari among others; the BRM
H-16 is a double flat-8, too.

heavier.  Why

I believe the major *dis*advantage is actually the compliance in the
valvetrain - pushrods and rockers bend and flex more than
directly-operating OHC systems.

The main advantage I know of is that you can run both banks of
cylinders from just one camshaft, running down the centre of the 'V';
the camshaft drive is also shorter and neater.

Marketing, I suspect... they want to base the race engines on the ones
in their roadgoing cars.  There may be other reasons though - I'll
await further comments!

Jonny

J. Todd Wass

OT: Real Engine Physics

by J. Todd Wass » Fri, 07 Sep 2001 07:11:18

  A V configuration is probably the most compact, for one.  I think one
important reason the V type is most common is because it allows for a good
intake manifold design.  With an inline four cylinder, if you've only got one
air intake/carburetor, it's going to be closer to the middle two cylinders than
the outside two.  Therefore, the intake runners will be longer for two of the
cylinders than the other two.  For optimum cylinder charging however, you want
to tune the intake runner lengths (the pipes that go from the carburetor to the
cylinder head intake port) to a specific length for maximum cylinder charging
at a certain rpm, and you want them to all be as close to the same length as
possible.  If the lengths are different, you end up with two pairs of cylinders
that make peak torque at two different speeds.  That might make a flatter
torque curve, but in high rpm racing it's generally more desirable to have one
really high torque peak, as long as the rules allow enough transmission gears.
(Some engines offset this somewhat by using wierd camshafts that have different
valve timing for different cylinders.)

  Of course, a single carburetor V-8 is little more than two inline four
cylinder engines joined together, so I don't know exactly what point I was just
trying to make there :-)   Anyway, horizontally opposed engines require more
than one carburetor/intake unless it doesn't need to spin very fast.  

  From a book I'm looking at now:
 "In multi-cylinder engines the cylinders and their disposition are arranged to
eliminate as many of the primary and secondary forces and moments as possible.
Complete elimination is possible for: in-line 6 cylinder or 8 cylinder engines,
horizontally opposed 8-cylinder or 12-cylinder engines, and 12-cylinder or
16-cylinder V engines."

  Those engines will be the smoothest and can probably be run to the highest
rpm before something breaks.  Of course, it doesn't say that a V-8 is one of
the good ones, so.....  ?  

  A couple years back I wrote some engine simulation stuff, but didn't get into
multi-cylinder models for a bunch of reasons I won't bore you with :-)  I do
recall realizing that the cylinder bank angle would have an impact on a couple
of things.  The cylinder firing angles was one.  Since you'd want cylinders to
fire at the same angle relative to each other, one firing at 0 degrees, the
next firing at 90 degrees (compared to the first one), the third at 180, etc.,
all the way around, you probably will get a crazy wobble with a bank angle of
10 degrees instead of perfectly flat, 60, or 90 degrees.  This book talks
briefly about a twin cylinder horizontally opposed engine that fires at 180
degrees, 540, 180, 540, etc., rather than 180,360,180,360, (or is that
180-0-180-0 ?) which would cancel out the forces and run nice and smooth, as a
bad example.  It's sort of like having the pedals on a bicycle at 90 degrees to
each other instead of 180, it makes things a bit wobbly and the engine won't
spin very fast without breaking something.  However, if it's cheap to build it
this way, it fits where you want it, and it doesn't need to spin at 100,000
rpm, it might be just fine.

  One other thing that bank angle and V/inline/etc. arrangment may have an
impact on is the timing of the opening/closing of the valves and the pressure
pulses that move through the intake and exhaust runners.  It's desirable to
have them in tune (by selecting appropriate lengths), and I think changing the
bank angle can effect both this and balance at the same time.  Anyhow, these
all interelate along with how the throws on the crankshaft itself are arranged.
 That doesn't really answer your question, but it's the best I can do right
now!  

  >What are the advantages with a pushrod?  I understand they have a bit of

  Pushrod engines are cheaper to build, that's probably the only benefit.  The
pushrods are relatively flexible compared to the camshaft or tappet, so the
valve lift doesn't follow the cam profile as well as an overhead system might.
There's also more mass to move around, so you need stiffer springs, which wears
out the camshaft faster and also causes power loss from the added friction.
Perhaps NASCAR and the others might have mandated them to keep costs for the
teams down.  Otherwise, they all would spend millions more designing four/five
valve overhead cam systems, only to get restricted somehow to keep the speeds
down.  Just my opinion though, I don't really know for sure.

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

Dave Henri

OT: Real Engine Physics

by Dave Henri » Fri, 07 Sep 2001 10:27:29

  From what I've learned by watching TV...
the biggest problem with a wide angle V engine is chassis rigidity.  The
engine mounts must be lower down because of the wide V and this increases
the chance the chassis will flex.  Which...I guess is a bad thing.
dave henrie

Scott Willingha

OT: Real Engine Physics

by Scott Willingha » Fri, 07 Sep 2001 10:20:43

I think the reason for this is that a pushrod
valve train has an extra lever in each
mechanism: the rocker arm.  This can
provide mechanical gain so that the valves
can be opened farther with a milder cam
grind.  Thus the cam runs smoother with
less float, etc., at least until high revs where
the extra mass, spring pressure, and flex
degrades the operation.

-- Scott Willingham


Bill Met

OT: Real Engine Physics

by Bill Met » Fri, 07 Sep 2001 12:55:47

If you want a great book on these topics and similar ones, I highly
recommend "The Design and Tuning of Competition Engines" by Philip H.
Smith (ISBN 0-3876-0140-1).  A link directly to the publisher's site is
below.

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/product.htm?code=G140

-Bill

Mats Lofkvis

OT: Real Engine Physics

by Mats Lofkvis » Fri, 07 Sep 2001 16:46:41


>     Just a few real world questions I've had knocking about my head.

>     Why is the V configuration generally better for race engines?  In F1 if
> it's better to have a wider V angle for lower center of gravity lower
> profile, etc. (ie. the Renault 110 degree engine) why doesn't somebody make
> a horizontally opposed boxer?  If that isn't good why does it work well for
> Porsche and Subaru?

A boxer probably is heavier than at least a narrow V engine, but
it also is much wider which may be the real problem. But boxers have
been used even in F1, so it all ends up in weighting advantages
against disadvantages of different designs.

I'd say the overhead cam engine is both heavier and have more
moving parts, especially if it is a V or boxer engine. And a
lot more complicated on top of that (e.g. having the camshaft(s)
far from the crank complicates the camshaft drive a lot).

      _
Mats Lofkvist

Jason Mond

OT: Real Engine Physics

by Jason Mond » Sat, 08 Sep 2001 00:13:57

Sounds reasonable.  Thanks  :)


> I think the reason for this is that a pushrod
> valve train has an extra lever in each
> mechanism: the rocker arm.  This can
> provide mechanical gain so that the valves
> can be opened farther with a milder cam
> grind.  Thus the cam runs smoother with
> less float, etc., at least until high revs where
> the extra mass, spring pressure, and flex
> degrades the operation.

> -- Scott Willingham



> > I heard you can get more low-end torque from a pushrod.  Not sure why.
> > Valves open - valves close.  Why would the mechanism for opening them
> > affect low-end torque?

--
Jason Monds
http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (GPL)
http://www.scprc.com - Stock Car Division of the PRC. (N4, Fun Run Sims)
(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)
Bj?rn

OT: Real Engine Physics

by Bj?rn » Sat, 08 Sep 2001 18:49:54




> >     Just a few real world questions I've had knocking about my head.

> >     Why is the V configuration generally better for race engines?  In F1
if
> > it's better to have a wider V angle for lower center of gravity lower
> > profile, etc. (ie. the Renault 110 degree engine) why doesn't somebody
make
> > a horizontally opposed boxer?  If that isn't good why does it work well
for
> > Porsche and Subaru?

> A boxer probably is heavier than at least a narrow V engine, but
> it also is much wider which may be the real problem. But boxers have
> been used even in F1, so it all ends up in weighting advantages
> against disadvantages of different designs.

There is also the issue of routing exhaust in boxers, requiring that the
engine aswell
as the gearbox to be mounted higher.

-Bj?rn


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