rec.autos.simulators

IndyCar-II Woes

Eldred Picke

IndyCar-II Woes

by Eldred Picke » Thu, 04 Apr 1996 04:00:00



>Subject: Re: IndyCar-II Woes
>Date: Mon, 01 Apr 1996 18:26:14 -0800

[snip]

Well, *I* don't like it more than ICR1...I can't drive it on SEVERAL tracks.  
Detroit:the walls blend in, and I can't tell where the turns are.  Phoenix:the
manual LIED, you can't go flat out thru 3/4.  Cleveland:the turns blend in
with the ground.
Now some of my problems may be because my machine is too slow(486/50 & p90) to
run the detail I need, my setup skills are poor, or my driving skills are
poor.(or all of the above).  I can't do anything about the first, and I've
turned a LOT of practice laps with no improvement.  No matter WHAT I
read,study, whatever, I have NO IDEA how to setup a car for my driving style.  
I'm actually sorry I spent money on the thing...

I am NOT paranoid.  And why are you always watching me?!?
Eldred Pickett


Jo

IndyCar-II Woes

by Jo » Sat, 06 Apr 1996 04:00:00



> Well, *I* don't like it more than ICR1...I can't drive it on SEVERAL tracks.  
> Detroit:the walls blend in, and I can't tell where the turns are.
Phoenix:the
> manual LIED, you can't go flat out thru 3/4.  Cleveland:the turns blend in
> with the ground.
> Now some of my problems may be because my machine is too slow(486/50 &
p90) to
> run the detail I need, my setup skills are poor, or my driving skills are
> poor.(or all of the above).  I can't do anything about the first, and I've
> turned a LOT of practice laps with no improvement.  No matter WHAT I
> read,study, whatever, I have NO IDEA how to setup a car for my driving
style.  
> I'm actually sorry I spent money on the thing...

How long have you had it? Took me about... 4 months to finally not be
pissed off at it all the time.

I like it now. But I do think that the manual is very, very incomplete-
doesn't even tell you what the optimal temp for the tires is or what RPMs
to shift at. I spent months thinking I was gaining something by revving
way up past 14k. I'm still not sure if tire wear is a gradual degredation
of the tires over time or a sudden "tires are no good now" sort of
thing... Papyrus really needed to go in to more detail on how their
simulation works, because even tho it is a great simulator, there are lots
of things which are simply beyond the range of a PC simulator (mostly
because we can't feel the road physically), and we need to know what
Papyrus is doing on them. Like, do we pick up dirt going off the track,
messing up traction? Does the engine degrade if you rev it at 14k for an
hour, or does it just go catastrophic? Do tires get damaged from wall
scrapes or tangles with other cars? These are subtle things that are
pretty hard to figure out just by watching your monitor and hearing the
revs, I think. I am also a bit skeptical about how Papyrus is dealing with
spins- sometimes it seems to me like if you exceed some threshold, you do
a "pre-packaged" spin. It would be nice to know if that is true or not.

It is clear that after an hour of racing on worn tires I can't run a lap
as fast as my qual, even with almost no gas, but I keep wondering if that
is just me being tired.

And has anybody actually noticed drafting of any kind in ICR2?! I realize
it's not going to be as important as in NASCAR, obviously, but I also
don't seem able to draft anybody, even when the other car only has 1 or 2
MPH over me.

Setup info is very poor too, a few "rules of thumb", but not enough
(particularly with shocks and torsion-bar info) to know what is going on
when modifying a setup.

Oh- and the elementary replay functions... let's face it, we need some way
to do a "random access" of the replays, rewinding the way they are now is
*way* beyond tedious. Thank god for EDITRPY (Thanks, Mr. Corrigan!)!

After all that, hey, I love the sim, and don't really know any other game
with such a gradual, challenging learning curve. I think Papyrus needs to
hire out another set of programmers for the interface. They clearly know
what they are doing in the sim, but the interface needs a cosmetic
overhaul (less tedium) and some more user-defined params. And I know
everyone else seems to get somebody at their tech support, but I have
*never* gotten a reply on the 5 or more things I've asked them. What is up
with that!?

John Buce

IndyCar-II Woes

by John Buce » Tue, 09 Apr 1996 04:00:00

based on the first manual, it recommends max. 240 (i think) for soft
compound, up to 260 (??) for hard compound.  in ICR2, i found its good to
keep the tires a little above 200 F, but at 220 they begin to get
slippery.  i THINK its more powerful & more fuel wasteful to shift at
14,000, i do it only when overpassing a tough opponent (shift down to
5th, gun it to 14,500, and then shift to 6th after i passed him)

check F5 (the tire data) and the green bar gets thinner, then turns
yellow, then red (thats your gradual degredation). if one tire wears out
way too fast, fix it.

dirt has no effect on your car once your back on the road. and there are
no *marbles* on outside of turns (thank GOD for that!), but when i rev up
to 14k, the engine SOUNDS like its wimpering (pop-off valve sound f/x?)
and i believe it increases your chances at a car breakdown.

if its under REALISTIC damages, a little scrape against the wall leads to
front wing damage affecting the car handling (but i once managed to
counter it in a race by adjusting my front-anti-roll bar :)

yeah, drafting is tough.. it only helps you get speed and swerve around
the car in a turn, and saves gas. like in the real thing. few cars just
FLING past a competitor just coz they are behind them.

they should have made a DUMMY option that makes it drive like ICR1.. not
everyone is as skilled as me :)

Josh Beauli

IndyCar-II Woes

by Josh Beauli » Wed, 10 Apr 1996 04:00:00



>Subject: Re: ICRII woes
>Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 16:04:10 -0700
>... i THINK its more powerful & more fuel wasteful to shift at
>14,000, i do it only when overpassing a tough opponent (shift down to
>5th, gun it to 14,500, and then shift to 6th after i passed him)

Wrong!  I have done some testing and have found that the optimum RPM
(cosworth) is 12800-13000.  After 13000 you start losing speed that you would
be gaining if you upshifted.  BTW tires in ICR2work the best at 235-255,
depending on the compound.
John Buce

IndyCar-II Woes

by John Buce » Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:00:00

maybe you're right with the RPMs thing, but i'm pretty sure running at a
lower gear and high rpm is better than higher gear and low rpm

besides, 13000 is high enough. doesnt it give a warning by then?

for the tires, i beg to differ.  220 tops.  anything more and the car feels
like its on ice.

Terje Wold Johans

IndyCar-II Woes

by Terje Wold Johans » Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:00:00


> > >... i THINK its more powerful & more fuel wasteful to shift at
> > >14,000, i do it only when overpassing a tough opponent (shift down to
> > >5th, gun it to 14,500, and then shift to 6th after i passed him)

> > Wrong!  I have done some testing and have found that the optimum RPM
> > (cosworth) is 12800-13000.  After 13000 you start losing speed that you
> > be gaining if you upshifted.  BTW tires in ICR2work the best at 235-255,
> > depending on the compound.

> maybe you're right with the RPMs thing, but i'm pretty sure running at a
> lower gear and high rpm is better than higher gear and low rpm

Yes, of course but once you exceed ~13000 rpm that isn't true any
longer.

Press F10. Check the rev counter when you cross 13125. It turns red.
One problem, though, it's the same for all engines. The Honda should
be good for ~14000. Papyrus has ***ed up again I presume.

The optimum seems to be around 215 - 230.
It depends on the compound. Soft is around 215-220.

--
--- Terje Wold Johansen

--- http://www.racesimcentral.net/~terjjo/
--- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

RickGent

IndyCar-II Woes

by RickGent » Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Press F10. Check the rev counter when you cross 13125. It turns red.
One problem, though, it's the same for all engines. The Honda should
be good for ~14000. Papyrus has ***ed up again I presume.
<<<

According to our physics model, the Cosworth and Mercedes engines redline
at 13000 RPM, the Honda at 13500 RPM. If you have a reference work that
indicates otherwise for the engines used in the 1995 season, I'd be
interested in hearing about it.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Jo

IndyCar-II Woes

by Jo » Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Thanks, John, Josh, and Terje, and Rick for the discussion, it was
informative. So I think I can be pretty sure that tire wear is a
three-step degredation. That helps, because when testing, I might just
start doing pitstops for  4 gallons and no tires- instead of putting
new tires on and going through the pain of heating them up again.

I'm 1/10 of a second off Long Beach's "Track Record" (Andretti,
52.4...), and I'd like to beat it before sundays race! Just for the
hell of it.


>According to our physics model, the Cosworth and Mercedes engines redline
>at 13000 RPM, the Honda at 13500 RPM. If you have a reference work that
>indicates otherwise for the engines used in the 1995 season, I'd be
>interested in hearing about it.
>Rick Genter
>Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
>Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Rick, maybe you can enlighten us as to what optimum tire temps are for
both kinds of tires. There is a whole lot of speculation up here about
it, the range people are saying spreads from  200 on up to 255-
clearly most of us are wrong!

And it is fair to say that at "redline" the engine is putting out the
most horsepower?

Great game, keep up the good work


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