Dave Ewing
John,
You've heard the following a thousand times, I'm sure. But, what the hell...
You articulated your point very well. However, as a lifelong resident of
Indy and a patron of every race held at IMS since 1975, I must reply. The
IRL, for all of its merits, which includes some very good racing, has
achieved one thing without question that raises the ire of many, if not most,
champ car/Indy car fans. It has simply taken the air out of the Indy 500
balloon as a major event. This has perpetuated an almost insurmountable
image problem for the race and the IRL. Outside of the Indy die-hards, few
people care. If you attend practice (other that carb day) during May, you
have to agree. Aside from Tom Carnegie, Donald Davidson and the 500 people
who frequent 16th Street Speedway, no one is there. It used to be a big deal
that galvanized the city for a month. Now it's an anti-climatic two-week
diversion that takes a back seat to the Pacers in the playoffs. Fortunately,
I have season tickets at Market Square Arena.
Providing an alternative career path for oval racers and a marginally less
expensive (this point can be argued) formula has come at a very steep price.
It will be a while, if ever, before the IRL is a stable racing series.
Perception is reality. The IRL is widely perceived as triple-A and in the
publics eye, its hard to move up once youve moved down and it's got
nothing to do with your, my or Robin Miller's opinions. If the fans in
Southwest Vista section 2 on race day are a representative sample then its
unanimous. Cant we just have it back the way it was before? If it aint
broke, dont fix it. The speedway had filet mignon in 1995 and traded it in
for fried chicken. I enjoy fried chicken. Heck, the recipe may improve a
bit over the coming years. But, it's still fried chicken. Ever since I was
ten years old, once a year, every May I was very accustomed to filet.
With all of that said, give me an all-oval champ car/Indy car sim with
GPL-ish physics and I will be the first in line to buy it. ;-)
Cheers,
Jim
> >I'm sorry if you were offended by my point of view. But I don't think
> >IRL is that great in reality (the grandsstand are half empty during the
> >races, I'm not making that up). I don't hate it because it's an oval
> >tracks only series. I hate the attitude. It makes me feel like to many
> >non-Americans were winning race in Cart so they fonded a series for
> >Americans. Too bad a Swedish drivers won the championship (Kenny Brack).
> >I was ready Racer magazine and you should read the comments made by an
> >IRL fan regarding Cart and it's international roster. If you want, I can
> >e-mail or even fax you the article... As far as you objectivity goes on
> >the subject matter, I don't think that being a publisher for IRL
> >magazine helps you a lot. You're biased right from the start...
> >As far as the other IRL game I mentioned, have you actually played it? i
> >bought it, and it was a sorry excuse for a sim. Graphic were good, but
> >gameplay was a bit lacking. If the next game based on IRL from GT
> >interactive is great, then hurray for the fans... But fan of IRL, I'm
> >not and won't by the game. Maybe I should have put it that way in my
> >first post... maybe sarcasm can't be understood by people anymore... as
> >for being offensive, if you notice my previous post, I did not use any
> >"f" words or insults... I just stated the reality (well, are the
> >grandstands half empty or not?).
> >Feel free to e-mail me directly if you want, I always like a good debate
> >;)
> >Philster
> Philster,
> I feel like I owe you an apology for being over-sensitive. As a
> strong supporter of the IRL, I get very defensive when someone takes a
> negative stand against the IRL.
> As an IRL supporter, I feel I also owe you an apology for the opinions
> of a few fans who have given you the impression that the IRL is an
> exclusive All-American, anti-foreigner racing league. Nothing could
> be further from the truth. Tony George formed the IRL in an effort to
> build an open-wheel all-oval series that would give oval track racers
> (a group that primarily consists of American dirt-track racers)
> another career choice besides NASCAR. The American oval track racing
> tradition can trace its roots back to the 1911 Indianapolis 500 --
> there were earlier U.S. oval track races, but Indy has the longest
> history and has earned the title of "The Greatest Spectacle in Racing"
> thanks to its long and rich history.
> The IRL was intended to be an affordable open-wheel all-oval series.
> Consider that: F1 is all about big money and high technology on road
> and street courses; NASCAR is about sedan-type cars in primarily an
> oval track environment; CART is about high-technology open wheel cars
> racing in the best of both worlds -- ovals, street courses, and road
> courses. With the IRL, Tony George wanted to recapture the early
> heritage of Indy-style racing by forming an all-oval open-wheel racing
> series. If there is room enough in the racing community -- and in the
> hearts of fans everywhere -- for NASCAR, F1, and CART, then surely
> there is room for a race series that embodies the IRL's
> similar-yet-unique formula (similar hardware to CART, with a racing
> series similar to NASCAR).
> The first Indy 500 in 1911 included many of the best drivers from ALL
> OVER THE WORLD. Similarly, with the inclusion of drivers like Kenny
> Brack, Roberto Guerrero, Stephan Gregoire, Eddie Cheever, and Arie
> Luyendyk, the IRL also includes many of the best drivers from all over
> the world as well. The IRL is about an affordable open-wheel all-oval
> racing series that offers opportunities to U.S.-based oval track
> drivers as well as drivers from other disciplines from all over the
> world. I understand that there are a handful of IRL fans who take an
> openly hostile pro-American stand when it comes to their choice of
> drivers in the IRL, but I assure you that these fans do not represent
> ALL IRL fans.
> Remember that Kenny Brack's championship came with him driving for
> A.J. Foyt, who is arguably the most All-American driver ever (he's
> competed in F1, NASCAR, the Indianapolis 500, and CART). This alone
> should be proof enough for you and for everybody else that IRL is
> willing to embrace the best drivers available, regardless of their
> nationality. I, personally, was GLAD to see Kenny Brack win the
> championship -- he definitely earned it through superior driving
> skill, just as Eddie Cheever (a non-American born driver who was born
> in Italy, I believe) earned his victory at Indy.
> As for myself, I just finished writing a column for a major magazine
> (not my own Web-based publication, but an actual print magazine)
> DEFENDING one IRL team's choice of a former CART competitor as their
> primary driver for the 1999 season. This article will be appearing in
> March, and I will provide further details after the magazine's actual
> publication date. This should illustrate that I try not to let my
> passion for the IRL cloud my judgement -- I do admit that it does at
> times make me a bit too defensive, and for that I apologize.
> I encourage you to give the IRL a chance, and to not let the negative,
> potentially offensive viewpoints of a few opinionated fans -- or even
> the media -- affect your ability to judge the IRL on its own merits.
> There is some very good racing going on in the IRL; if you do not
> prefer oval-style racing, then the IRL is obviously not going to
> appeal to you, but that doesn't mean that the IRL is a "bad" series.
> I personally find that I enjoy oval track most of all, and I also
> enjoy road courses to a certain degree, but street courses do not
> really appeal to me. For me, though, this does not mean that F1 and
> CART have nothing to offer, or that they are racing series with no
> merit -- it simply means that I may not enjoy all the events on their
> schedule, but that doesn't mean that I have to speak out negatively
> against the series in general. Some people really enjoy street
> courses, and that's fine with me -- I will not attack their
> preferences simply because they enjoy something that I do not find
> particularly enjoyable.
> Again, I apologize for misinterpreting your message as a personal
> attack -- I was definitely over-sensitive, and for that I beg your
> forgiveness. I also encourage you to try to view the IRL in a little
> bit different light -- you may not personally like oval track racing,
> but that does not necessarily mean that the IRL is without merits.
> Regardless of what your favorite race series is, I wish you a safe,
> happy, and enjoyable season in 1999.
> Take care!
> -- John Bodin
> Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine On-Line
> http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com
> P.S. I have actually played the ABC Indy Racing sim, and I'm a big
> supporter of it. It's not the most realistic game ever, but it does
> have some merits. I've also developed several car setups as well as a
> steering modification utility that greatly enhances the playability of
> the game -- check it out at my ABC Indy Racing Sim Support Site:
> http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/abcindyracing/
> Enjoy!
> > Remember that Kenny Brack's championship came with him driving for
> > A.J. Foyt, who is arguably the most All-American driver ever (he's
> > competed in F1, NASCAR, the Indianapolis 500, and CART).
> John, I don't believe A.J. ever competed in Formula One. A quick check
> of Forix shows that the only three races he is credited with in the
> World Championship are the Indy 500 races of 1958 - 60 (when results
> from Indy counted towards the title even though the drivers and cars
> were very different). Did he drive an F1 car in a non-championship race
> perhaps?
> Dave Ewing
Anybody else have any ideas on this one??
-- JB
I hear what you're saying, and I do admit that the CART/IRL split has
hurt Indy to some degree, but really, besides Little Al and Michael
Andretti, who's really missing from Indy? Or what, for that matter?
Granted, Team Penske, Newman-Haas, and several other teams aren't
there, but I think the "loss" at Indy is more of an ILLUSION of loss.
Cheever's still at Indy, Luyendyk's there, Boesel's back, Guerrero's
been there -- granted, a few outstanding CART drivers have missed
their chances at Indy in the past few years, including Vasser, Pruett,
and Zanardi, but I really feel that these driver AND the fans are
missing out because of petty politics on everybody's part.
In fact, I believe that all the politics boil down to almost a single
issue at this time: CART's engine manufacturers' insistence on engine
leases versus the IRL's requirement for the teams to be able to
purchase the engines outright. If the CART engine manufacturers would
come up with an alternative to their several million dollar engine
lease plans, then the CART and IRL series specs could easily be
brought into alignment.
All that aside, though, it DOES mean that with CART and the IRL, there
is MORE open-wheel racing going on, which SHOULD make most fans happy
in itself.
In the sim world, though, all I can say is that I hope the next IRL --
and CART -- sim is more along the lines of GPL and less like ABC Indy
Racing or Microsoft's CART Precision Racing.
Take care, and may you enjoy a safe, happy, and competitive season in
1999!
-- John Bodin
Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine On-Line
http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/
I actually find this to be true, but mostly at the tracks where CART was.
Especially Phoenix. They got a fairly full crowd there for the CART guys
(not as much as NASCAR, but that is just TOO crowded). Now, with IRL, there
must be only 1/4 or 1/5 the spectators!!! Why? We saw these speeds ten
years ago! And in my opinion, the engines sound like crap...the IRL does
provide some great racing though. I mean, it is good, but I really would
love to have CART back...
--
Kirk Lane
ICQ: 28171652
is MORE open-wheel racing going on, which SHOULD make most fans happy
in itself.>>
i totally agree with that!
the problem i see is this: CART was a great series because it was an
american series with roots and history, yet was cosmopolitan (with
international drivers and events) - and had the glamour of the world's
single greatest motor race to boot. Open wheel racing on road courses,
euro-style- with high speeds and high tech- has a certain glamour and, well,
legitimacy (for lack of a better word), helped by the (admittedly
one-sided---- so far) cross-pollination with F1. (can anyone imagine a World
Champion wanting to drive in the irl?) CART was like F1 without being quite
as snobbish, and included ovals for some close quarters racing along with
the crown jewel 500. It was a point of pride for some american motor racing
fans, esp. since we didn't even have an F1 driver or even an event. Now some
luster is off without the 500, and the irl is perceived as "to blame" for
that.
for fried chicken. I enjoy fried chicken. Heck, the recipe may improve a
bit over the coming years. But, it's still fried chicken. Ever since I was
ten years old, once a year, every May I was very accustomed to filet.>>
that might be a bit harsh, but i think sums it up pretty well. there's this
feeling that the irl is sort of bush league- thrown together hastily because
of the politics and TG. on the other hand, i definately enjoyed some of the
racing- especially that night race at c***te. part of the problem is
perception- backed up by the fact that i can't remember who was involved in
that race (billy boat? sorry)--perception is indeed reality....
so what we need is a race to settle it... bring CART back to the speedway.
hell, the 500 has always had it's own set of rules (having been under USAC)-
so why should it be any different now? if those involved move fast, they can
save this race by having a set of 'compromise' rules for just this race.
then folks would watch....
just venting......
mark
THESE kinds of discussions and messages are why I come to RAS... not
some of the acrimonious stuff that flies around here all too frequently.
So thanks! :-)
--Dave
> >John,
> >You've heard the following a thousand times, I'm sure. But, what the hell...
> >You articulated your point very well. However, as a lifelong resident of
> >Indy and a patron of every race held at IMS since 1975, I must reply. The
> >IRL, for all of its merits, which includes some very good racing, has
> >achieved one thing without question that raises the ire of many, if not most,
> >champ car/Indy car fans. It has simply taken the air out of the Indy 500
> >balloon as a major event. This has perpetuated an almost insurmountable
> >image problem for the race and the IRL. Outside of the Indy die-hards, few
> >people care. If you attend practice (other that carb day) during May, you
> >have to agree. Aside from Tom Carnegie, Donald Davidson and the 500 people
> >who frequent 16th Street Speedway, no one is there. It used to be a big deal
> >that galvanized the city for a month. Now it's an anti-climatic two-week
> >diversion that takes a back seat to the Pacers in the playoffs. Fortunately,
> >I have season tickets at Market Square Arena.
> >Providing an alternative career path for oval racers and a marginally less
> >expensive (this point can be argued) formula has come at a very steep price.
> >It will be a while, if ever, before the IRL is a stable racing series.
> >Perception is reality. The IRL is widely perceived as triple-A and in the
> >publics eye, its hard to move up once youve moved down and it's got
> >nothing to do with your, my or Robin Miller's opinions. If the fans in
> >Southwest Vista section 2 on race day are a representative sample then its
> >unanimous. Cant we just have it back the way it was before? If it aint
> >broke, dont fix it. The speedway had filet mignon in 1995 and traded it in
> >for fried chicken. I enjoy fried chicken. Heck, the recipe may improve a
> >bit over the coming years. But, it's still fried chicken. Ever since I was
> >ten years old, once a year, every May I was very accustomed to filet.
> >With all of that said, give me an all-oval champ car/Indy car sim with
> >GPL-ish physics and I will be the first in line to buy it. ;-)
> >Cheers,
> >Jim
> Jim,
> I hear what you're saying, and I do admit that the CART/IRL split has
> hurt Indy to some degree, but really, besides Little Al and Michael
> Andretti, who's really missing from Indy? Or what, for that matter?
> Granted, Team Penske, Newman-Haas, and several other teams aren't
> there, but I think the "loss" at Indy is more of an ILLUSION of loss.
> Cheever's still at Indy, Luyendyk's there, Boesel's back, Guerrero's
> been there -- granted, a few outstanding CART drivers have missed
> their chances at Indy in the past few years, including Vasser, Pruett,
> and Zanardi, but I really feel that these driver AND the fans are
> missing out because of petty politics on everybody's part.
> In fact, I believe that all the politics boil down to almost a single
> issue at this time: CART's engine manufacturers' insistence on engine
> leases versus the IRL's requirement for the teams to be able to
> purchase the engines outright. If the CART engine manufacturers would
> come up with an alternative to their several million dollar engine
> lease plans, then the CART and IRL series specs could easily be
> brought into alignment.
> All that aside, though, it DOES mean that with CART and the IRL, there
> is MORE open-wheel racing going on, which SHOULD make most fans happy
> in itself.
> In the sim world, though, all I can say is that I hope the next IRL --
> and CART -- sim is more along the lines of GPL and less like ABC Indy
> Racing or Microsoft's CART Precision Racing.
> Take care, and may you enjoy a safe, happy, and competitive season in
> 1999!
> -- John Bodin
> Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine On-Line
> http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/
