rec.autos.simulators

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

Michael Powel

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by Michael Powel » Mon, 19 Oct 1998 04:00:00

That would be nice - but I have not yet reached that state of GPL nirvana:-)

- Michael

Michael E. Carve

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by Michael E. Carve » Mon, 19 Oct 1998 04:00:00


% Aiming to get my lap times down in GPL, I went down to the store and bought
% one of Thrustmaster's F1 wheels (I think its called Nascar Pro in the US).

% I couldn't get on with it! I went back to my trusty old CH tiny joystick.
% This one looks like a radio control stick, and you operate it with your
% finger and thumb - left/right and throttle/brake.

% I found the main disadvantage with the wheel is I simply couldn't apply the
% opposite lock as fast as with the stick. Also the pedals didn't have the
% feel that I thought they would have, especially for braking.

% Does anyone else think the same, or is everybody a wheel fan?

Yep, not being able to flick the wheel from left to right as quickly as
one can throw the stick left to right is a disadvantage (the same one
real race car drivers have by the way <G>).  When I switched from my T1
(totally different steering feel and pedals).  It took me quite some
time to adjust to my NASCAR Pro.  I think if you give it some time you
will adjust.  The same goes from changing from one type of real car to
another (say front wheel vs. rear wheel drive).  

While it may be a disadvantage to have to move a wheel its full motion
to apply opposite lock, it's more realistic.  Once you learn to drive in
a manner suiting your controller (be it wheel or joystick), I personally
believe you will find that you can go just as fast with either.  It just
takes time and some mental/physical adjusting.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Spudgu

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by Spudgu » Mon, 19 Oct 1998 04:00:00



Dave Kaemmer appears to have a peculiar control setup. If you watch any
of his replays (included with GPL) you'll see he has amazing control
over the wheel, and is able to apply opposite lock easily and
efficiently, and go from lock to lock at incredible speed.

Contrast this with Alison Hine's replay, where she appears to have a
similar degree of control over the wheel as myself and most other racers
I've seen who use a wheel.

To me it looks reminiscent of drivers using slomo in GP2, where they
could move the wheel from lock to lock easily and retain total control
and confidence. I'd like to know what controller Kaemmer used for these
laps.

--
Spudgun

Jan Mattsso

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by Jan Mattsso » Mon, 19 Oct 1998 04:00:00


It's not so strange... a joystick is simply a better controller. This is not
lost
on the auto industry, at least Mercedes-Benz are seriously looking into
using a joystick instead of a wheel in production cars.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are production cars with joysticks in 5-10
years.
Take a look at http://www.mercedes.com/e/innovation/rd/forschung_apr97.htm

/Jan

Daniel H Laurin

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by Daniel H Laurin » Mon, 19 Oct 1998 04:00:00

While a joystick has some advantages, it also has some disadvantages.  Being
able to rapidly steer from lock to lock is actually a disadvantage for the
average Joe.  There are lots of accidents today caused by oversteering and
this would exacerbate that problem.  Secondly people have a tendency to use
the wheel as a leverage point to slide themselves around in the seat (or to
hold themselves from sliding in the seat.)  Can you imagine how many crashes
there would be as people made hard turns, then slid in the seat immediately
applying opposite lock to their wheels.  They work much better when a
person's ***is fimly secured, like with a jetfighter pilot.  Further,
because slip angle and maintaining a certain static coeficient of friction
aren't as important to a pilot, he is less concerned with steady input.  One
big advantage to a joystick is you have feedback of which way the wheels are
pointed as opposed to a low ratio wheel.



>It's not so strange... a joystick is simply a better controller. This is
not
>lost
>on the auto industry, at least Mercedes-Benz are seriously looking into
>using a joystick instead of a wheel in production cars.
>I wouldn't be surprised if there are production cars with joysticks in 5-10
>years.
>Take a look at http://www.racesimcentral.net/

>/Jan

Grant Reev

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by Grant Reev » Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:00:00




> >Apparently, some of
> >the development people at Papyrus use a stick/pedal setup also.

> Dave Kaemmer appears to have a peculiar control setup. If you watch any
> of his replays (included with GPL) you'll see he has amazing control
> over the wheel, and is able to apply opposite lock easily and
> efficiently, and go from lock to lock at incredible speed.

> Contrast this with Alison Hine's replay, where she appears to have a
> similar degree of control over the wheel as myself and most other racers
> I've seen who use a wheel.

> To me it looks reminiscent of drivers using slomo in GP2, where they
> could move the wheel from lock to lock easily and retain total control
> and confidence. I'd like to know what controller Kaemmer used for these
> laps.

he uses a joystick to steer with, hence the incredible speed of
going lock to lock. but i'm amazed at how precisely he can steer
with a stick!
David G Fishe

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by David G Fishe » Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:00:00

There's a guy by the name of "Wolfgang" at the APEX forum who claims that
he's done a 1:04 with a stick at Watkin's Glen. He said the steering in GPL
feels awful to him with a wheel, but with a stick he loves it.

David G Fisher
DmndDave


>he uses a joystick to steer with, hence the incredible speed of
>going lock to lock. but i'm amazed at how precisely he can steer
>with a stick!

J

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by J » Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:00:00

I also use the CH-stick.
I'm absolutely not happy with it, because it's to sensible.
2. Problem: when breaking suddenly, I'm usually not able to maintain
direction because of influencing the steering function.

Today I buy a wheel.

Jens

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:54:08 +0100, "Michael Powell"


>Aiming to get my lap times down in GPL, I went down to the store and bought
>one of Thrustmaster's F1 wheels (I think its called Nascar Pro in the US).

>I couldn't get on with it! I went back to my trusty old CH tiny joystick.
>This one looks like a radio control stick, and you operate it with your
>finger and thumb - left/right and throttle/brake.

>I found the main disadvantage with the wheel is I simply couldn't apply the
>opposite lock as fast as with the stick. Also the pedals didn't have the
>feel that I thought they would have, especially for braking.

>Does anyone else think the same, or is everybody a wheel fan?

>- Michael

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J

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by J » Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:00:00

Also had this problem - already solved.
Forget the 2-joysticks option in Win95.
Configure the joysticks (I have two)  as CH-flightstick pro. Works
fine for me with Win95 and Win98.

Jens

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:27:38 -0400, "Rick Baumhauer"


>I still miss my old CH joystick - just like the one mentioned - but Win95
>refuses to recognize it any more.  The stick may have gone bad.  If not for
>that, I probably wouldn't have bought my Formula T1 - I can't drive with my
>CH Flightstick Pro, it's far too large for fine control.

>Of course, the reason I like the small joystick was that the first decent
>racing sim I played was GP1 (World Circuit, actually) on the Amiga, with a
>small DIGITAL joystick.  How they achieved the illusion of feel with a
>digital stick is beyond me, but I had blast with that game.

>Rick

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Michael Youn

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by Michael Youn » Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:00:00


> applying opposite lock to their wheels.  They work much better when a
> person's ***is fimly secured, like with a jetfighter pilot.  Further,
> because slip angle and maintaining a certain static coeficient of friction
> aren't as important to a pilot, he is less concerned with steady input.  One
> big advantage to a joystick is you have feedback of which way the wheels are
> pointed as opposed to a low ratio wheel.

While I like a joystick for sim driving, I've got to disagree with you
about using it in real cars. The wheel has an advantage (in real life)
because it is mechanically connected to the wheels, and channels
important information back to the driver this way. The theory is that
humans sense force much more accurately than displacement. That is, it's
easier to gauge how strongly the wheel fights you, rather than noting
how far you've turned the wheel. At one extreme, the premier fly-by-wire
fighter, the F-16, has a fixed, stationary control stick. The pilot
pulls or pushes against it, but it doesn't move. Also, knowing a little
about flying airplanes, control feedback is just as important to a pilot
as it is to you driving a car. I imagine a fighter pilot flying at the
edge of high speed stall is much more interested in tactile feedback
than you or I driving in traffic.

Michael.

'John' Joao Sil

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by 'John' Joao Sil » Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:00:00

Hi David,

I'm not sure how much memory you have, but if you have 128 megs RAM and
take part in some of these online races you can record a replay which
will contain pretty much practice + the whole race for a full field of 20
online cars. You can then play the replay through the different drivers***pit
view to see their style and how they achieve their times. Highly recommended.

I hosted VROC sessions pretty much the whole weekend and played back some
of the replays I got, and looking at other drivers you can definitely
see variation in the styles. Personally, I drive "smooth", stay on the
black marks for most of the time <G> and have gotten pretty decent results.

Then again I don't care if I'm ever "the fastest GPL driver", and I would
never consider giving up the immersion of my wheel for the added speed of
a joystick.

Give that replay thing a try if you have enough memory, warning though,
I started watching the replays and spent 2 hours before I noticed that
it was time for bed...

Seeyas on the track.

--John (Joao) Silva



>That Spa lap you sent me was definitely the best I've seen yet. Awesome.
>But, like I think I mentioned in my letter to you (maybe not), I'm still not
>sure about most of the other GPL tracks (shorter, tighter turns) and the
>ability to be smooth and also very fast. I'm going to set up a joystick and
>do some experimenting. It would be strange if people were actually faster
>with joysticks. After all this time, there's no way I could ever feel
>comfortable using a stick instead of my wheel.

>David G Fisher
>DmndDave



>>It's indeed possible, but as you've seen GPL can be driven very >smoothly -
>>and fast - with a wheel. The key is to *not* need to throw the steering
>>from side to side!

>>Cheers,
>>Richard

>>--
>>We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our
>opinions
>>whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie...

Neil Yeatma

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by Neil Yeatma » Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:00:00


> Hi David,

> I'm not sure how much memory you have, but if you have 128 megs RAM and
> take part in some of these online races you can record a replay which
> will contain pretty much practice + the whole race for a full field of 20
> online cars. You can then play the replay through the different drivers***pit
> view to see their style and how they achieve their times. Highly recommended.

If you have less than 128 and would like longer replays, adding the
following to CORE.INI allows you to save as much replay as you want.  
The value I have here allows for 20 meg worth.  This is more than enough
for a short race and practice seession, or a medium race and most of
the practice. I think the default value is 2000.

[ Replay ]

replayMemoryOverride = 20000

And a mighty fine host you were, too.. :)

--

Neil Yeatman          
Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

'John' Joao Sil

Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

by 'John' Joao Sil » Wed, 21 Oct 1998 04:00:00

Neat tip!

I upgraded to 128megs RAM just for GPL, but it has helped out win98 too,
especially since I've been hosting race a lot.

If with that setting you can save 20megs worth of replays then that should
work out fine for most people with 64 megs RAM, the replays I've saved from
20 car online races include practice + race, come out at the largest to
29-30megs, so 20 megs should get you most if not all of the race.

Also thanks for the kinds words, I had a blast hosting VROC races this
weekend, especially since I hosted a bunch of races on some of the tracks
that aren't as common for online races, and so I forced myself to learn
these tracks. Finally I can turn a lap or two at the 'ring without shift-r
and also found out what fun Mexico and Kyalami are. Amazing to be following
a train of 4-5 cars through those German hills.

Thanks to all the great drivers who dropped by and added to the nice
learning atmosphere at those online sessions.

Seeyas on the track.

--John (Joao) Silva




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