rec.autos.simulators

by **Harald van Sante** » Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Hello all,

I currently use TOCA by Codemasters a lot and have great fun playing GP2. I
am running the demo version of F1RS and CPR. Now, that should show my
genuine interest in racing games/sims.

I have been lurking in this group for quite a while and have posted a few
times before. The group is really good, as there is a lot of help and
support from everybody who knows. Lately there have been some threads
regarding GP2/GP3 which included posts by a guy from Microprose, Mr Rich.
Although there was some hostile reaction to his posts, I think it was about
time that the folks who produce or publish our beloved games/sims get to
reply to the posts in here. However due to the mentioned hostility on some
of the replied posts and emails to mr Rich he has decided not to post here
publicly anymore. I think it is a shame that we don't get the support people
from the big companies to be active in here. On another note I think they
can get some good input and client relations from being active here so it
also pays for them to mingle with the clients so to say.

Wouldn't it be good to create a possibility for the companies to participate
in talks in here without them running the risk of being attacked flamed or
whatever? A possible solution might be to create a subgroup with a moderator
in which the big companies are represented each by their own Customer
Service department and open to anyone who has relevant and serious questions
or remarks concerning their products? i think it would be valuable to all of
us.

Now.... shoot me for bringing this up. I want to see where this goes.

Harald.

by **Richard Hassel** » Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:00:00

I think this might be interresting..

Richard Hasselt

"A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about
going just slow enough to stay on the track."
===================================================
My Homepage : http://over.to/rhasselt
F1 Connections : http://over.to/f1connections
Team Jordan Grandprix 2 Homepage :
http://home.worldonline.nl/~barhorst/jordangp2.htm
===================================================

Harald van Santen schreef:

by **mark jeangerar** » Sat, 13 Jun 1998 04:00:00

That could be the most important function of this medium. But I think the developers would be much more valuable than customer service. Most (good) game pages have a CS forum. Plus I'd rather they built the game with simmers in mind, than have to try to explain why the car won't do this or that after it's already out. I wonder how much Sierra has changed the GPL package because of the world wide feedback they are getting in many different arenas? Good move on their part.

--

mark
"A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track."

F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm
Remove us here and there to mail me.

Wouldn't it be good to create a possibility for the companies to participate
in talks in here without them running the risk of being attacked flamed or
whatever? A possible solution might be to create a subgroup with a moderator
in which the big companies are represented each by their own Customer
Service department and open to anyone who has relevant and serious questions
or remarks concerning their products? i think it would be valuable to all of
us.

Now.... shoot me for bringing this up. I want to see where this goes.

Harald.

by **Andrew Fielde** » Sat, 13 Jun 1998 04:00:00

> Wouldn't it be good to create a possibility for the companies to participate
> in talks in here without them running the risk of being attacked flamed or
> whatever? A possible solution might be to create a subgroup with a moderator
> in which the big companies are represented each by their own Customer
> Service department and open to anyone who has relevant and serious questions
> or remarks concerning their products? i think it would be valuable to all of
> us.

I think the main reasons Mark Rich got flamed to a crisp were a) It was not
obvious that he was a MPS rep, and b) if so, it wasn't immediately clear if
he was speaking from a personal or company point of view.
Therefore doubts were cast upon the veracity of his statements, and he was
challenged. I personally was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't see why support people shouldn't post in this ng, but I think it
would help if they had more first hand technical knowledge of the product,
so they could comment authoritatively on any questions asked - there are a
lot of very knowledgeable people in this ng. It's clear there are people
working in the industry who do post, but not from a company standpoint.
However it would be good to get definitive answers from genuine support
people on specific products. Anyway I assume that the big companies do
monitor these newsgroups, but from the reaction that Mr. Rich got, who
can blame them for not responding.

--

UK.

by **Michael E. Carve** » Sun, 14 Jun 1998 04:00:00

<snip>
% Wouldn't it be good to create a possibility for the companies to participate
% in talks in here without them running the risk of being attacked flamed or
% whatever? A possible solution might be to create a subgroup with a moderator
% in which the big companies are represented each by their own Customer
% Service department and open to anyone who has relevant and serious questions
% or remarks concerning their products? i think it would be valuable to all of
% us.

% Now.... shoot me for bringing this up. I want to see where this goes.

I sometimes wonder if even a well moderated forum would work for most
reps from companies. We would have to have a well respected and trusted
moderator. I for one wouldn't want the group moderated to the point
that "legitimate" concerns weren't getting posted, because it was
decided not to "upset" a particular company.

Personally, I feel that many of the "reps" who have graced r.a.s. in the
past and then "fled", don't have the foggiest clue as to what the world
is like in Usenet land. Then again, I understand where they are coming
from. 99.999% of them are loyal to the company they represent and thus
feel that any "attack" on the company or their post is a personal
attack. Then we have the "mob" and "feeding frenzy" syndrome that takes
over. All of a sudden, we have a "real" representive and many just want
to vent their built up frustrations (some real, some just concocted).
This is when the whole process loses its constructive edge.

Before we take the time and effort to pursue the possibility of creating
a moderated newsgroup, we really need to find out if there are enough
sim publishers who would even care to participate in a "protected"
newsgroup. Or should we take the "Field of Dreams" approach (build it
and they will come)? [aside to Jim Sokoloff: You are the closest thing
we have to a company rep who still lurks about -- what is your take on
this? Would there be enough genuine interest to make it worth
pursuing?]

I would say we could partially judge the possibilities of such a
discussion group by the quality and quantity of responses to this thread.
It's been discussed before over the years, but. . .

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **Mike Lescaul** » Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:00:00

I think a moderated newsgroup would make sim developers more likely to
post. Although it could never be a substitute for r.a.s.

I find that when I post on r.a.s. I have to very carefully select what I
say, lest it be twisted around and quoted over and over again to make
some point I never intended.

But in more friendly forums like gpl.gamestats, I'm more likely to just
pop up a quick message without editing my post a dozen times. The end
result is that I post more often in the areas that are more relaxed.

However, the bottom line is that this forum is read by many people at
Papyrus, as well as other companies. Customer feedback does make it
back to the developers, which is the most important thing in the end.

Mike Lescault
Papyrus

by **mark jeangerar** » Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:00:00

In that case Mike, could you guys put refreshment stands at all the tracks? I get mighty thirsty when I'm racing.

--

mark
"A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track."

F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm
Remove us here and there to mail me.

I think a moderated newsgroup would make sim developers more likely to
post. Although it could never be a substitute for r.a.s.

I find that when I post on r.a.s. I have to very carefully select what I
say, lest it be twisted around and quoted over and over again to make
some point I never intended.

But in more friendly forums like gpl.gamestats, I'm more likely to just
pop up a quick message without editing my post a dozen times. The end
result is that I post more often in the areas that are more relaxed.

However, the bottom line is that this forum is read by many people at
Papyrus, as well as other companies. Customer feedback does make it
back to the developers, which is the most important thing in the end.

Mike Lescault
Papyrus

by **Harald van Sante** » Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Michael E. Carver heeft geschreven in bericht ...
So the step to take now, is to ask sim/games companies if they are willing
to "invest" rep time in this group, and then suggest we have a trial period
in the existing group. If it turns out that even after a while it doesn't
get to a workable situation for the reps, then we can try to set up a
moderated group. Of course I'd also prefer to have an open group, btu it
depends on wether we can all restrain ourselves and the fellow groupers to
be offensive.

Another option may be to ask the companies to set up Usenet groups instead
of website forums etc., as it is easier and cheaper accesible for most
people.

Who has a list of e-mail addresses for the reps, so we can send them a
request to visit?

Harald.

by **Michael E. Carve** » Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:00:00

% > Before we take the time and effort to pursue the possibility of creating
% > a moderated newsgroup, we really need to find out if there are enough
% > sim publishers who would even care to participate in a "protected"
% > newsgroup. Or should we take the "Field of Dreams" approach (build it
% > and they will come)?

% I think a moderated newsgroup would make sim developers more likely to
% post. Although it could never be a substitute for r.a.s.

I agree nothing short of an invasion from outer-space will upstage
r.a.s.!!!! Which I understand is going on at the present. <G>

% I find that when I post on r.a.s. I have to very carefully select what I
% say, lest it be twisted around and quoted over and over again to make
% some point I never intended.

% But in more friendly forums like gpl.gamestats, I'm more likely to just
% pop up a quick message without editing my post a dozen times. The end
% result is that I post more often in the areas that are more relaxed.

Very good point. It's nice to be able to have a conversation and feel
free enough to just shoot from the hip without having to worry about
being flamed alive. Unfortunately people "representing" a company have
more to worry about that making a fool or roasting target of themselves.
That's a luxury I have, but Mike Lescault doesn't.

% However, the bottom line is that this forum is read by many people at
% Papyrus, as well as other companies. Customer feedback does make it
% back to the developers, which is the most important thing in the end.

I think one of the things your core supporters don't "feel" is the
opposite of the above. While you may indeed monitor r.a.s. and other
forums, you don't dare speak up in an unmoderated forum, thus your
customers feel removed from the developers. Which sometimes leads to
the "vile" and abusive posts one sees when a rep dares show their face.

Thanks, Mike, for putting your oar in....
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **Todd Hecke** » Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Okay <deep breath>, here goes:

I am currently working for Engineering Animation on TransAm Racing '68-'72.
I've been lurking
for some time now, initially watching for threads about our game but getting
more and more caught
up in the newsgroup in general. While I've been a casual Nascar player for
a couple of years, I'll
admit I had never checked out r.a.s. until after starting work on the game.
Oh yeah, I'm currently
at 1:12 in the Lotus in GPL...

We've had discussions at work about participation in the newsgroup.
Feelings have been mixed,
with at best a cautionary attitude about being more involved. I should say
that I am speaking
for myself and not the company, at least for now. I'm actually doing the
racecar dynamics programming
and would love to spill my guts about what we're doing, but I'm not sure
what the reaction would be
upstairs or, probably more important, at GT Interactive. I would be up for
attempting to get company
backing, if you guys are interested in the involvement of a newcomer to this
market.

As for the game, I will only say that the public's perceptions of a game are
heavily shaped by marketing prior
to its release (or at least the release of a demo) and that there has been a
LOT of emphasis on crashing
in the hyping of this game. But I'm hesitant to get involved in any sort of
long, drawn out defense because
many people won't really believe me until they've played the game, right?
And that's as it should be. In any
case, anybody interested in the game might like to know that I've been
developing real-time computer graphics
hardware and software for training and simulation applications for almost 15
years, and that my business cards
used to say "Sim Guy." I also happen to own a 1970 Boss 302 Mustang, the
homologated street version
of the car that won the TransAm Championship for Ford in 1970, at the hands
of the great one, Parnelli
Jones. So you can see I have more than a passing interest in the subject.

I also realize that we are currently nobodies in this market and that, as
far as most of you know, we
could be just a flash-in-the-pan. All I can say is that proof will be in
the pudding. Okay, I know I left
my fire suit around here somewhere...

Todd Heckel

by **Harald van Sante** » Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Mike, thanks for joining in. It is good to see you folks do have some eye on
this group after all. I didn't intend to replace r.a.s by the mentioned
possibility for a new group, just an extension where it becomes possible to
have a real contact with the companies, like yours. You show to be lurking,
but as you mention in your post you have to be extremely careful in your way
of posting, to such extend that posting very seldom happens. And when it
happens there still is a big risk of being roasted and grilled by
misquotations, flames, etcetera. That could be minimised if there would be
good rules for a moderated group.

But, as mentioned in an earlier post, perhaps it is better to first start
some trial period in the existing group, and mobilise some of the reps of
the game/sim publishers.

Harald.

PS I am still looking for e-mail maddresses for the companies, so we may
alert them to this thread and ask them to participate in the group as it is.

by **Wolfgang Prei** » Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Hi Todd,

let me be one of the first to say "Welcome!"
Since I have been a reader and participant of RAS for a few years now,
allow me to humbly offer a few words of advice: