rec.autos.simulators

> > Heck David....as soon as I can get 43 of the best sim drivers
> > together....have them race together for a year or two....I'll have that
> > replay coming right up!  -:)

> > I think we are talking "hypothetical" here, aren't we?  Do you really
need
> a
> > replay to prove it is possible.....I wonder?

> Yes, I want to see a replay. We can talk all day but eventually there
needs
> to be proof that these things can be done. With such a huge and old online
> NASCAR community it should be easy to find.

> > I don't think the Michigan race (real) had guys running two feet apart,
> > 3-wide all day long.

> They were running like I described every time I looked.

> >> After reading your response here, I decided to go run some practice
laps
> at
> > Michigan.  I wanted to see what you were talking about ....regarding the
> > various lanes (lines) being so different in speed.  I spent an hour and
a
> > half there.......just before coming back here to make this reply to you.
> I
> > didn't find the high, mid and low lines to be all that different in
> > speed.....maybe a 1/10 of second was the spread on my lap times.  I

> > So David, I issue a challenge to you.  Go to a track you've never been
to.
> > Figure out how many "lines or lanes" it has (not all tracks have three
> > lines....some (most) have only two....a few, like Darlington...have only
> > one).  Then, practice each until all three are producing lap times
within
> > about 1/10th of a second.  Keep track of what you had to do to get those
> lap
> > times equivocated, then come back and tell us.  Or tell us, it can't be
> > done.

> > TP

> I don't know what times you were running there with the fast setup at 70
and
> no wind in testing. I can do a 39.9, and can string a bunch of 40.2's
> together. I'm absolutely slower if a take a mid or high line through the
> corner. If you don't hit the apex up against the apron you will lose a
chunk
> of time. If you leave room for two other cars.....forget it. What kind of
> times were you doing?

> Also, testing by yourself is not nearly the same as running in traffic. As
I
> said, the real guys were running side by side through the turns three deep
> as if they were nailed to a board and being rotated through the turn. They
> were just a few feet apart and the guys on the outside were just as fast
as
> the ones on the inside. In the sim, you will push badly if you try this at
> Michigan. No way you will see two let alone three guys replicate what I
saw
> on TV.

> Let's just assume I stink and don't have the ability to do what I saw the
> real drivers do. There are guys who have been racing the Papy NASCAR sims
> for years. They have been racing in leagues agaisnt the same drivers for
> years. They've put in God knows how many hours on these tracks and racing
> each other. There are so many N2002 leagues around. It should take two
> seconds to point me to a replay  that looks just like what I saw Sunday if
> the sim has got it right. It's that simple really.

> I'm not really ripping the sim either. It's about as good as it gets. I'm
> just saying that something really leaps out at me when I watch the real
> races and then compare it to N2002, especially at certain types of tracks.

> David G Fisher

> > > > David....

> > > > I think I know what you are getting at........i.e., will an online
> races
> > > > ever mimic a real Winston Cup race.....in terms of bunching of cars,
> > > running
> > > > side by side and nose to tail for hundreds of laps, etc.  Probably
> not.
> > > > But, if you consider that most online races are done with amateur
> > > > drivers.....then to blame the sim directly for this isn't totally
> > > accurate,
> > > > either.  Would it be possible to have a sim race in N2K2 that would
be
> > > > closer to the real thing.  "Yes"...its possible, if you could get 43
> of
> > > the
> > > > best N2K2 sim drivers together....let them race each other week
after
> > week
> > > > for several years.....knowing each other's habits and racing
> style....if
> > > all
> > > > that could be done, my contention is the N2K2 race would be about
95%
> > > > accurate to the real world Cup race (the sim is 95% accurate to the
> real
> > > > world racing).

> > > > If I was using N2K2 as a "training device/simulator" for a real
world
> > > > Winston Cup race.  I would want to run against (well programmed) AI
> cars
> > > > rather than human drivers...of the sort we find in online racing
> today.
> > > The
> > > > AI mimic the top pro drivers much closer than any group of current
> human
> > > sim
> > > > drivers.  Again, this is not the fault of the sim.....you know what
I
> > > mean?

> > > > I did think you were talking about a more narrow issue, that of
being
> > able
> > > > (or unable) run side by side for multiple laps....in today's version
> of
> > > > N2K2.  My contention is that if you get the right group of sim
drivers
> > > > together, equally prepared and practiced....and they can do that all
> day
> > > > long......at any track.  I thought you were saying that wasn't
> possible.
> > > > Guess I wasn't clear about that?

> > > > Good discussion, though.....don't you think?

> > > > Tom

> > > Actually, I don't think an N2002 replay of even 20 laps of what I saw
> > Sunday
> > > in the real Michigan race can be presented to me even though there are
> > guys
> > > who have been racing each other in Papy NASCAR sims for years now.

> > > At some tracks, sure you can run side by side three wide. Tracks with
> > steep
> > > banking or the shorter tracks. It's easy. At tracks like Michigan
> though,
> > > the real drivers were going three and four wide through the turns, one
> or
> > > two feet apart, glued to the track, and were just as fast on the
outside
> > > line. I am positive that I won't see anyone recreate this in N2002.
This
> > > will make some people mad, but I don't find N2002 to be the hardest
> thing
> > > I've ever done in sim racing either. It's not as if an oval has 16
> > > completely different turns spread over 3.5 miles like an F1 course. If
> > > people with more experience than me with the sim can't do it, then
> > something
> > > is wrong with the sim.

> > > A replay shouldn't be too hard to find if I'm wrong though, right?

> > > David G Fisher

> >Save me a spot back there Eldred. I'll run with you any day of the week.
> >grub

> Hehe..thanks.  It won't be Mondays, though.  I've quit the ISS league...
> Michigan showed me that I couldn't run with those guys.

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> GPLRank:+8.09
> N2002 Rank:+22.329

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