rec.autos.simulators

by **Jason Moy** » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:34:42

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:52:25 -0400, "ymenard"

>I mean, how hard can it be to simply research a little (if I take per
>example the page you linked) to find out what kind of start/finish line
>there is at Magny-Cours. You plug in a tape of the race, and each lap you
>will see it!!!!

The track models in F1C, fwiw, seem to be the same as F1 2002 accuracy
wise, but the colors are much more accurate now.

Jason

by **Redmis** » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:48:20

That's a fair point. If you're prepared to accept that the physics are
fairly simplistic, GP4 is a decent GP weekend simulation. The actual
cornering speeds, braking distances etc are far more authentic than F1 2002.
I'm a real nuts and bots type sim-racer so I don't really find the cars in
GP4 fun to drive though. I like the wet weather track effects though....

by **Redmis** » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:50:14

Yeah, they're a bit of a motley crew, ISI - there's some real geniuses in
their team but a few lame ducks as well....

by **Stuart Becktel** » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:10:19

As has been described in interviews, EA wouldn't allow the ISI team to fix
the tracks even if they wanted too. It sounds really dumb but they wanted
too. It think the mod community should step up to the plate and fix all the
errors, but that's just me.

by **Redmis** » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:30:18

Well, somebody converted The Hungaroring over from GP4 and it's quite a good
drive albeit a little slow in the fps department. AFAICT this will be the
last F1 game from ISI so it would be worthwhile getting some modellers to do
some work on the tracks. I'm told that lofting a track is a very tricky
process though and takes ages to get right. I'm sure there's nothing
illegal about converting tracks over from GP4 - as long as no profits are
made. AFAIK, the Netkar addon tracks are converted GP4 tracks.

by **GBB** » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:34:06

There would be copyright issues involved, although it's probably the sort of
thing that as long as you're not profiting by it you'd just get a
threatening letter from Hasbro if they found out and took offence.

An alternative would be a converter like Dave Noonan's for NR2002/3 that
doesn't distribute any copyrighted material, that might be difficult though.

by **frederickso** » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:48:34

copyright doesnt matter unless you make money from it

by **Stuart Becktel** » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:54:25

It still does, remember a few years ago when the US Pits had to stop their
daytona project? It doesn't just matter about money.

by **GBB** » Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:55:19

Yes it does, distributing converted tracks without permission (and you'll
never get that from Hasbro) in essence and law is the same as distributing a
warez game.

Netkar is a very small project at the moment I so they can get away with it.
But if someone converted GP4's tracks and they were used as a community wide
replacement for the ISI monstrosities Hasbro would most likely find out and
force them to be taken off the internet.

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:33:54

"Stuart Becktell"
US Copyright laws come into play even if you personally don't make any
money. If the company PERCEIVES that your efforts will deny them money,
then you are violating the copyright laws. So even tho all your work may
be for free, if you impact, however slightly, the sales of a Copyrighted
product you are in violation.
But it gets better. Papyrus didn't hold the copyright to Daytona.
Daytona licensed it to SEGA. Sega complained to Daytona that the licensing
fees they paid were being underminded by a private project...the Daytona
lawyers contacted the Papyrus lawyers who HAD to act. Why? Because at
some point Papyrus wanted to be included in a licensing deal for Daytona
and if they failed to act like a good faith partner, Daytona would have
little reason to work with them in the future.
Codemaster already squelched one IRL Heat mod because it would
negatively impact future sales of a sim they were developing. Two other
current users outside the US have attemped an IRL mod and I'm curious how
long it will take before they attract attention. So using Codemasters
tracks without permission is just begging a bored Corporate lawyer to let
the dogs loose.
A private user is not likely gonna attract attention, but if a mod
group that depends on the goodwill of developers gets involved. Then the
*** legal beagals can stop all mod releated work by that group.
dave henrie

by **Jason Moy** » Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:04:30

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:34:29 -0700, The Laughing Gnome

>Hmm, you a real F1 race driver or something? I mean, you must know
>what you are talking about, right?

F1 2002 you could drive ridiculous lines that bore no resemblance to
reality. Hanging all 4 tires over a curb was the preferred line in
many many corners, or taking a 45 to 90 degree turn flat out..
Perhaps F1C isn't perfect in this regard, but it's certainly
believable based on watching the way the real cars respond. Watch
qualifying from Melbourne this year for instance, you'll see a.)
drivers who cut the curbs too far pulling completely out of the
throttle to gather the car back in and totally knackering their laps
and b.) braking before the fast left/right complex midway through the
lap.

In addition to that, anyone with any sort of physics background who
knows how wings work would immediately see that they didn't behave in
a realistic manner in previous ISI sims. A wing in a plane that is
traveling sideways is not going to generate lift, and I would expect
the same thing to happen in a car. As of the angle of attack
increases, there should be a significant dropoff in downforce/grip,
something that was never modelled by ISI very well before. In the
past you could basically lean on the wings, throwing the car sideways
or cornering with ridiculous lateral G's at high speeds without much
of a downforce penalty. That's thankfully been remedied.

Jason

by **Jason Moy** » Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:06:43

>I like the wet weather track effects though....

Yeah, one thing GP4 still has over F1C is the "surprise! the track is
wet" effect. I've lost many a GP4 car when unexpectedly hitting a wet
patch before a high speed turn. The way a drying track is modelled is
awesome too, with the cars actually carving out a dry groove as the
session progreses.

Jason

by **Jason Moy** » Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:08:31

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:32:31 -0700, The Laughing Gnome

>Yea, but its got all those bumps to make up for it. Name one other F1
>sim that does bumps as well.

Yeah, having the cars go airborne through Priory because of the
boulder-sized bumps gives it a much more authentic feel...

Jason

by **Iain Mackenzi** » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 03:11:07

Didn't mean the debate over whether the tracks in F12K2 were accurate, just
meant the whole subject of track accuracy in all sims has been done to death
over the last couple of years here. Track accuracy is more important to
some than others.
Iain

> > Do a Google search on Francois (ymenard) and track accuracy over the
last
> > couple of years. You'll find lots of material there. It's been an
ongoing
> > debate for a long time!
> > Iain

> There is no debate. The track are disgusting. It's a fact

> Doug

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rec.autos.simulators

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