rec.autos.simulators

F1 2003( F1 CC)

frederickso

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by frederickso » Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:40:36

Can you give one track as an example. I dont watch F1 much but Ive
downloaded some onboard videos and I cant point out any major differences
between the videos and the game.



> > What's wrong with the tracks?

> Everything.  Even Geoff Crammond at least knows how to recreate the
> atmosphere of a F1 GP weekend.  The tracks are so bad, for me they make
> every EA release a complete ***, as I'm unable to immerse myself into
> racing a Formula One over those ***ing bad tracks.  I won't detail every
> track, I guess anybody who's went to those tracks or seen them on TV knows
> how inaccurate they are.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Iain Mackenzi

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by Iain Mackenzi » Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:44:20

Do a Google search on Francois (ymenard) and track accuracy over the last
couple of years. You'll find lots of material there.  It's been an ongoing
debate for a long time!
Iain


> Can you give one track as an example. I dont watch F1 much but Ive
> downloaded some onboard videos and I cant point out any major differences
> between the videos and the game.




> > > What's wrong with the tracks?

> > Everything.  Even Geoff Crammond at least knows how to recreate the
> > atmosphere of a F1 GP weekend.  The tracks are so bad, for me they make
> > every EA release a complete ***, as I'm unable to immerse myself into
> > racing a Formula One over those ***ing bad tracks.  I won't detail
every
> > track, I guess anybody who's went to those tracks or seen them on TV
knows
> > how inaccurate they are.

> > --
> > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > -- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
> > Corporation - helping America into the New World...

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Doug Elliso

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by Doug Elliso » Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:46:23


There is no debate. The track are disgusting. It's a fact

Doug

GBB

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by GBB » Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:35:46




> > Do a Google search on Francois (ymenard) and track accuracy over the
last
> > couple of years. You'll find lots of material there.  It's been an
ongoing
> > debate for a long time!
> > Iain

> There is no debate. The track are disgusting. It's a fact

> Doug

But better tracks from other sims could be converter, it'd be great to see
some sort of concerted effort to replace or redo the tracks as I think we're
probably stuck with this F1 sim for a long while.

As long as the multiplayer and physics code are good the community can do
the rest.

ymenar

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by ymenar » Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:02:29


> But better tracks from other sims could be converter, it'd be great to see
> some sort of concerted effort to replace or redo the tracks as I think
we're
> probably stuck with this F1 sim for a long while.

Indeed, I just feel it's a shame that a company like ISI, who clearly know
that their tracks are of quality of a sim released in 1996, decided to drop
the ball on their budget for such important aspect of the game.  They have
done it for the last 3 title of theirs, now.  But then again even F1RC
wasn't perfect (but having such quality tracks in an ISI title would be
incredible).

I'm not so sure about the multiplayer, Papyrus spoiled us so much that it
can't be compared.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://ymenard.cjb.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Jason Moy

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by Jason Moy » Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:14:12


>Can you give one track as an example. I dont watch F1 much but Ive
>downloaded some onboard videos and I cant point out any major differences
>between the videos and the game.

Entire sections of Silverstone that are downhill in real life go
uphill in the game and vice versa.

The esses at Magny Cours and the final chicane are about as wrong as
you can get while still resembling the real track in any way.  The
first set isn't too bad (should be a hair tighter) but the second set
in real life are tighter with a rather noticeable elevation change,
and the chicane towards the end has a bit of camber to help you
through it and dumps you out in a straight line for the pits (whereas
in F12k2 you have to fight to just get the car left to make the
immediately following right hander).

There is no modelling of camber that I can see on any track anywhere.
They are flat as boards except for huge dips and rises (alternately
known as "polygon ramps") that don't exist in reality.  The bump
modelling at Priory at Silvertsone which throw even the GTR cars up in
the air if hit the wrong way are laughable and remind me of what a
badly converted track from ICR2 would probably feel like in GPL or
N2003.

Eau Rouge is much less narrow/bent than it is in reality.

Montreal is just wrong.  Period.  I'm sure if pressed Francois would
go into more detail. =)

The elevation changes at Monza between the second Lesmos and Variant
Ascari (i.e. the Vialone Chicane, whatever they call it now) are
interesting but bare little resemblance to reality.

Hockenheim and Nurburgring were way off, but since the course changes
they attempted to model occurred after the game was released that's
understandable.

Aside from those points, the ideal line through most corners involves
putting 2 wheels on the grass, which is a huge no no in any racing
car.  In reality going beyond the edges of the curbing heavily
unsettles the car causing you to slow dramatically and fight to keep
it straight.  This isn't much of a track modelling problem per se, and
isn't a problem in GTR (because of the suspension model) or the 1995
mod (because of the aero model), but it makes the tracks feel horrible
when the ideal lines are so wrong and when you can blow a turn and
literally drive half a straight with 2 or 4 wheels on the grass
without losing much time.  Apparently the new suspension and aero
modelling makes curb cutting a risky venture in F1C (yay).

Honestly, if you want to know what's wrong with the tracks, play GP4
and then go back to F1 2002.  It will be like racing entirely
different courses, the latter of which aren't the accurate ones.

FWIW, if anyone cares, I could always post in-car shots (er, above
car?  whatever that half-in car cam is called just above the driver's
head) of the same corners of each track from each sim for a
comparison.

Jason

Jason Moy

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by Jason Moy » Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:15:12



If the physics are as good as advertised, I'd be incredibly pleased to
see a GP4 --> F1C track converter.  It would nip both the horrible
tracks and oversaturated textures in the bud at the same time.

Jason

Redmis

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by Redmis » Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:37:45

If you despise the oversaturated textures so much, check out SLN's track
updates.  He tries to match the colours to what they look like on TV which
is completely silly IMO but I'm sure you'd like them - they're as dull as
dishwater.

Jason Moy

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by Jason Moy » Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:56:35



http://www.racesimcentral.net/***.com/~jmoyer/F12K2vsGP4/

Just a few corners, hardly the biggest offenders, but when you realize
that every section of every track is at least this different it kinda
kills the atmosphere of driving these circuits.  As horrible as they
are, the tracks are still the star of the show as much as the cars
are.

Jason

Redmis

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by Redmis » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:12:14

Yeah, GP4 proves that not even accurate tracks can save a poor racing
simulation.

GBB

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by GBB » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:53:22



> > But better tracks from other sims could be converter, it'd be great to
see
> > some sort of concerted effort to replace or redo the tracks as I think
> we're
> > probably stuck with this F1 sim for a long while.

> Indeed, I just feel it's a shame that a company like ISI, who clearly know
> that their tracks are of quality of a sim released in 1996, decided to
drop
> the ball on their budget for such important aspect of the game.  They have
> done it for the last 3 title of theirs, now.  But then again even F1RC
> wasn't perfect (but having such quality tracks in an ISI title would be
> incredible).

From what ][udson has been saying on High Gear, ISI attempt to persuade EA
to let them redo the tracks but they only went for new textures, their hands
seem to be tied by a big evil corporation.

F1RC's weren't perfect but they were very good, I just wish some could
convert them but apparently it's not likely.

GP4's are possible and would be a massive improvement but they're too flat.

What would be best imo would be to take the track geometry from GP4 and redo
them from scratch based on that. It'd be a big undertaking but there is so
much effort being put into mods for what is a flawed sim, we should be
sorting out the flaws first. If I had the 3DS Max expertise I'd give at
least one a go, sadly I don't.

I haven't tried it yet but I've heard apart from the pausing when people
enter problem it is a lot better, still doubt it's anywhere near papy
quality though.

Jason Moy

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by Jason Moy » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:55:43


>Yeah, GP4 proves that not even accurate tracks can save a poor racing
>simulation.

I dunno, even with it's simple physics model it manages to recreate F1
in a much more convincing way than any ISI sim prior to the latest
(which I haven't played yet, so the jury's still out imho).

I'm not going to say it's Papy-quality or anything, far from it, and
I'd rank it behind something like GTR or one of the more convincing F1
mods (the 1995 mod is still my favorite, very edgy grip and
unforgiving curb/grass handling).  On the other hand, the physics in
the as-shipped F1 cars in previous ISI titles have been laughable.
Fun, maybe even challenging, but laughable.

Jason

JTBur

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by JTBur » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 01:27:39

Everything is up for debate.




> > Do a Google search on Francois (ymenard) and track accuracy over the
last
> > couple of years. You'll find lots of material there.  It's been an
ongoing
> > debate for a long time!
> > Iain

> There is no debate. The track are disgusting. It's a fact

> Doug

Dave Henri

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by Dave Henri » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:07:52


   Hey!  What were you doing following me at Magny Cours?(left colum 2nd
pict.)

dave henrie

ymenar

F1 2003( F1 CC)

by ymenar » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:52:25


> Just a few corners, hardly the biggest offenders, but when you realize
> that every section of every track is at least this different it kinda
> kills the atmosphere of driving these circuits.

Exactly.  How can any of them beg to say they have accurate tracks, when in
a way or another, each and every detail is thrown on on the track (a tree,
the colour of a tyre wall, the height of the catch fence, support roads onto
the track, simple object geometry, etc.) without any reason or research.
They just throw in stuff so the tracks don't look graphically empty.

I mean, how hard can it be to simply research a little (if I take per
example the page you linked) to find out what kind of start/finish line
there is at Magny-Cours.  You plug in a tape of the race, and each lap you
will see it!!!!

At least F1RC had a constancy, and let's never forget the amazing complexity
of AMA Superbike.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://ymenard.cjb.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...


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