rec.autos.simulators

So it shouldn't come as a surprise that 1999 would be a somewhat
disappointing year for the sim racing crowd. I was e***d about Le Mans,
but recent information isn't promising. Nascar 3 was going to be the big
game of the year, but I might just save that as Christmas present for
myself, instead of going strait out to buy it. The Trans Am game was canned
after being the most promising game of all.

So what's left? Well there are the 2 SCCA sims coming sometime, but I'm not
optimistic for any 1999 releases. One of the rally sims could be a nice
surprise. And after playing SCGT it seems my interest is in sports car road
racing more than any other division.

Sound bleak? GP3 is coming, with such a weak market in sim games this year,
I expect GP3 to be received mighty well, and to be the obvious nominee for
sim of the year.

GPL didn't sell well because it was a simulator of the 1967 F1 season. It
was a niche product. I think Papyrus knew exactly how well it would sell. If
it had been a simulator of modern day F1 or Nascar, it would of easily sold
a million copies due to it's quality.

I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I think some hard core simmers
(which I count myself as one) really need to give up this illusion that
arcade racing fans "can't" drive a sim like GPL. Realism in a physics model
does not scare an arcader at all. IMO, for every one, excellent, hard core
sim driver, they are a thousand arcaders with just as much ability to rip
around a virtual track (including many 14 year olds). Have you ever competed
online, or off, with the top drivers of any arcade racing games? Trying to
beat them is just as difficult as trying to beat any top sim driver. We are
all just guiding a cartoon car around a cartoon track.

I think hard core sim drivers hate it when their hobby is often looked upon
by family and friends as childplay, and we go out of our way to legitimize
it by criticizing arcaders. Psychological analysis is now over. :-)

The realism of a sim's physics model is not what's challenging. It's the
type of cars and race that presents the challenge. Honestly, I never found
GPL any more daunting than some other sim/racing games I've enjoyed. Just
different. Arcaders enjoy a different challenge, not an easier one. They
simply prefer a more excititing environment to race in. The intended
recreation of reality in sims doesn't offer that. More eye candy, fantasy,
options, speed, etc., is what they want. The difficulty of the driving is
rarely ever mentioned by anyone I've been around.

Most of the comments that I've heard from real race car drivers (such as in
CART, F1, or Nascar) indicate that even they prefer the arcade racing games.

A quality sim of modern F1 will sell through the roof. GP2 and F1RS/MGPRS2
prove that. Nascar racing sims will sell like crazy also. Your average
person doesn't walk in a store and dwell on whether or not the physics model
will prevent them from enjoying the title.

David G Fisher

He's an N64 kid right now, though.  I still have some time ;)

David L. Cook

Rafael Medeiros

From a hard-core sim point of view those are fairly weak.  All those titles
suffer from old game engine problems (MGPRS3 and Papy's softwares) or
vaporware (Gp3 and Rally Championship).  There is the Motorsims sims also,
but that's mostly all.

Microsoft is releasing a city patch (San Francisco I think) for X-mas.
The Duke of Hazzard could have a good game engine if it goes with the
defunct TAR one.
Colin McRae 2 by Codemaster, but still the same game engine I heard.

Bike racing seems the hot thing still this year.  3 "sims" this year, it's
pretty incredible IMHO.

Weak summer, acceptable fall and winter.  But that's mostly all.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Hena

I would tend to think the GP3, RC, AMA, etc are a little more than vaporware
at this point.  Not to mention there is also GP500 for more motorbike fun.

Chalk that one up to GTInteractive...definetly wont buy any more of their
products.

I highly doubt that.  When generally people walk through the stores they
dont know how good or how tough a game is.  A lot of game buying folks dont
even read webpages or mags...and the reviews I saw of it generally came out
well.   I am more inclined to believe that the majority of people interested
in buying a racing title did not connect at all with the 1967 Grand Prix
cars.  If the game, with the same physics engine, had been based on Nascar,
CART, F1, Sportscars, American muscle cars (at least in the states), etc I'm
sure it would have sold quite well.

But then again, not every year can there be the next best thing come out
either.....Quake2 has been around quite awhile before Q3Arena started to
make waves, hell they had 20 patches/upgrades for Q2 before they said enough
is enough (I'd love to see Papy beat that for GPL...both in terms of
patches/fixes/tweaks to upgrades with new cars, tracks, time periods, etc.
:).

Personally, I'm more than happy with the challenge presented by GPL.

I agree, David - as a keen sim racing fan, the initial announcement that
Papy would be doing a '67 F1 season did nothing for me - I was unsure I
would even get it. That era held no real interest for me - even I am not old
enough to remember car racing then (I was 4).

It certainly does now, but the interest has been generated by the game
itself.

My interest was only aroused after I discovered it was THE ground breaking
racing sim. Only then did the choice of historic pre-winged F1 cars appeal.

So getting those not bitten by the bug of actually playing GPL to select it
off the shelves as the racing sim to buy is severely limited.

A dabble with the demo because it came on a CD on a mag rather than any
particular desire for the racing era will also do little to sell the
product, as we all know it takes more than a lap or two to get into it.

Never stopped you before David :)

Yes I have posted before how my nine year old son can run in the 1:08s at
the Glen (1:33s at Monza) with all aids off & manual gears. He has no
experience of driving let alone race driving. Oddly I believe this is an
advantage - he doesn't miss the lack of physical feedback & only knows of
visual & audio cues to drive on the limit.

True again - at times it is difficult for "mature" ***s to admit to
playing computer games which are typically viewed as a kid's activity.

For me it is not that I want the physics model to be the challenge - being
able to realistically race the AI or real people is the challenge I desire.
Yet I do want the physics model to feel as close to my perception of reality
as possible.

Winning an arcade race by 0.01secs may provide a short term buzz, and
ultimately I find it unsatisfying. Thats why I find all other racing games
lack something after GPL.

Heck David - I agree again - where's the fun in that. Don't people argue any
more!

Cheers

Tony

It did sell well, it just didn't meet the highest expectations

My God, we're only half a year into '99 and people are already
behaving as though the year is up!

What about TOCA 2 and SCGT?

That's your problem then, isn't it?

A weak market? I think not!

The Excelsior

"Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..."
Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country

I don't agree, I don't think it met the expectations Sierra set for it,
(because it's a 67 eurpean open wheel sim) let alone high expectations.

well as you may have read in response to some other replies, I was refering
to an advancement in the genre. TOCA 2 and SCGT are decent sims but don't
present a jump above anything. Also read the title, just because it's not a
banner year dosn't mean we won't have some quality products.

how is that? It was just saying that I was e***d about the Rally, touring
and Sports car games, but it didn't say that I like sports cars more than
power boat racing, just that my interest really is into it, before I really
didn't pay attention.

I agree, it's just that other than GP3 I don't see any other sims on a break
through on the horizon.

one addendum to that though, is that it has been a banner year for Motor
cycle sims, With AMA being right up there on my list with GP3 for possible
break throughs.

Did you buy him an N64 just to be mean, or to prevent him from beating
you at GPL?

The Excelsior

"Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..."
Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country

Ok...I mispoke, I should have said it was up to version 20.  But yes,
security fixes fall under fixes. :)  And yes, I was aware of that id's
decision to patch things quicker was based a lot of user
feedback...something to consider.