rec.autos.simulators

OK, this could easily be interpreted as whinging, and my girlfriend
always says I'm too thin-skinned, so it may very well be, but...I guess
I want to know if what I encountered is typical, or unwarranted, or if
I'm in the wrong here and should not bother racing on-line until I can
drive in traffic a -whole- lot better.

I ventured on-line with WinVROC for the first time last night. I joined
a Intermediate at Spa as I feel fairly confident there. I'd been
practicing with a full field with reduced AI for the last two days. This
puts me in the middle of the pack, just to get a feel for starts. Hairy
business, but I've started to get a feel for it and can usually make it
through, provided Surtees isn't behind me. 8^)

The actual start went well and I managed to keep out of trouble until
the Masta straight. The train was running on the left and I felt I could
pass to the right. I pull out to the right and I'm going flat out,
faster than the field, and someone pulled out of the line directly in
front of me. No time to even get on the brakes before we collided. The
"gentleman" I collided with felt it necessary to insult me, and I
disconnected.

So I tried again on another server, Spa again. I announced to the others
that I was a newbie. I didn't even try a qualifying run, figuring I'd
end up at the back of the grid, safely out of harm's way. At this point,
they were actually quite helpful, getting me to move ahead a few feet so
that the race could start. "This bodes well," I thought. We start. Oddly
enough, I'm 1st row, outside. Again, I make it through the start.  By
the time we're into Stavelot, I've passed several spins and crashes, and
seen at least one apology typed. This time I blew it, going much too
fast into La Source, e***ment and nervousness getting the better of
me. I took out another car in the process and typed a "Sorry." I was
informed by my victim that if I "can't keep up speed in the corners, I
shouldn't race." ...so I disconnected.

So, should I just ignore it while I improve, or should I go back to the
AI and GPLRank until I'm supremely competent? Am I being over-sensitive
here, or am I truly ruining things for others? Is there a
newbie-friendly arena where a beginner can get relaxed to the idea of
racing other human beings and not feel like he's spoiling the party?

Wannabe racer,

J. P. Hovercraft

Don't quit becuase of the jerks.  If we all did that, then there'd be
nothing but jerks left.  Besides, I've been VROCing on and off for 2 years,
and I've only been verbally abused once or twice, so I'm pretty sure your
luck will change.  Of course it helps if you don't race like a jerk. ;o)

Racing the AI can only get you so far.  Racing people on VROC is totally
different, so the only way to learn is to dive in head-first.

One bit of advice, you might start out with the Cooper.  It's easy to handle
in traffic, and people know it's a slow car, so they will watch out for you.

A.

JP

I suggest you come and race with us F2 guys.  We are far more open to
newbies and the racing is clean, close and enjoyable.  When someone makes a
mistake, they are generally not slagged off.  I have even heard of one of
the best F2 drivers quitting a race and riding on board with a slower
driver, giving helpful advice as he went around the track.

I suggest you sign up with the VROC-F2 e-group
(http://www.racesimcentral.net/) and log on to the VROC-F2 chatroom.

Cheers

Phil
--
F1 GPL Handicap:  +62.32 secs
F2 GPL Handicap: +149.53 secs

F2 Festival: http://freespace.***.net/philip.lee3

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

J.P.

You will need to grow a thicker hide to run F1 pickup races on Vroc.
You have to be sufficiently confident in yourself to apologize when
you make a mistake and ignore the ass*****s that think the race is the
most important thing in their life and gives them the right to give
you a ration of s**t about it.  These are usually some of the same
people who try to win the race in T1 of L1 and then disco by the
second lap because they're not winning.   These are the same people
that blame the government, their parents, and everybody in sight for
their lot in life but cannot accept a gram of responsability for
things that transpire.

In your first example, it seems the fellow dropped in front of you.
Could you avoid hitting him?  If not, that was his fault not yours.
Let 'em *** and ignore it.  I will suggest though, that you do not
enter your first twenty or so online races with any thought of
competing seriously.  You need to participate and absorb the online
environment of the races including the regular suspects <g> and their
personalities and skill levels.  You will then know who to watch for
and avoid.

 I agree completely with what Phil said in his response and can also
highly recommend the F2 club.  I've not run an F1 race on Vroc for
months after hooking up with these guys.  A very thoughtful, mature,
and sensible lot they are and a pleasure to race with.

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL

Hmmm.  Sounds like Michael Schumacher and Fisichella...

Strange... I raced a pick-up race not so long ago (Silvertstone) and
everything went well (and there were a number of "less experienced" drivers
present... some pretty scary moments were had by all ;-)).

I should hope your ezperiences are a-typical of WinVroc races. If I were to
be witness to such goings on the "flamer" in question would have me to deal
with (I'm armed with words and I know how to use them <g>).

Online you will make mistakes and you will crash, both on your own and
taking someone else (or multiple someone elses) with you. That's a fact of
life most people seem to be comfortable with. Of course the guy on the
receiving end might not act quite so courteous the first couple of seconds
after the shunt, which is something to be expected too.

However... let he who is free of sin cast the first stone. Online racing
makes a fool out of us all on occasions and there's no call for vitriol or
questioning someone's ability if the "inevitable" occurs.

If you want to truly enjoy the online esperience (i.e. have total confidence
in the people you're racing with), you might be well advised to seek out a
league which runs at a convenient timeframe for you (I found just
introducing yourself and showing an interest gets you in most places). Many
leagues have anti "red mist" policies and certainly I found people in
leagues have a more developed ability to shrug and say "that's racing" when
something bad happens.

My 2 cents: continue to race (the more you race, the better you get) and
ignore. Nobody has the right to quesrion your presence in a open race, IMO
(unless you deliberately crash people, which is another matter altogether).

Cya on the track,

Jan.
=---

J.P.,

Welcome!! I second the previous posts. As long as you've prepared beforehand
and are making the effort to drive cleanly you are very welcome. Just ignore
all the abuse. You're going to***up once in a while (just like me and
maybe some others <g>). If you make a mistake a simple "sorry" and maybe a
groval in chat after the race will suffice. The class racers will give you a
"np" (no problem) or maybe a (polite) suggestion and that'll be the end of
it. Learn from you're mistakes as much as possible and get back on the
"horse". As an aside, note that "po" from someone online means "pit out"

Before you join online make sure you know your braking points (from the
racing line and off the racing line). Also be sure that you and your setup
can hold a clean inside or outside line when racing wheel to wheel. Try
driving some offline practice laps on the right side and then the left side
of the track on cold tires before going online. It's a great warm-up.

Please keep up the online racing. The GPL online racing community is
relatively small and I know I would appreciate having a full grid showing
for many different races. Once you get accustomed to the e***ment of
online racing and find a comfortable and competitive setup you will
absolutely *love* it. I was in the middle of an Eagle/Honda sandwich on
Friday that went very hard for a few laps. Took me 2 days just to wipe the
<vbg> off my face.

J.P., learn what there is to learn from the experience and carry on. In these
cases it sounds like the other guys that were doing the whining. We are exposed
to such a wide spectrum of age, experience, and attitude on vroc, there will
always be a few outbursts, and they do tend to be few. Sometimes we are
deserving of criticism and should apologize, the rest of the time just shine it
on.
--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.
GPLRank -5.09

Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site
http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/

or everytime someone complains about your driving
just say " I am Schummacers student and I drive his style"
then you can just go about ramming / blocking anyone
:-)

Hey JP,

I was the Eagle in that sandwich with Jim, very good racing indeed...
We had some very close racing with everone holding their line and no
contact made. It was great.

Tonight on VROC on the other hand I had an encounter with some
zipperhead who's actions pretty much sums up what you should not do
online.

Monaco -- 6 drivers I think. Pole was 28.xx, #2 was 29.xx and everyone
else was 30 or better. I was third on the grid with a low 30. I can
run 27s there but was a little rusty...

T1... I'm still in third place at T1, go easy... don't take out the
guys ahead... got a good speed entering the turn, just keeping pace
with 1 and 2. Shit... in my mirrors here comes a damn Lotus full tilt.
After too many revolutions to count the car gets stopped and I can see
water on my left, where the hell am I?? OK, finally get the car turned
around and sure as shit I'm dead last. Where the hell is that Lotus or
the "S" (short for sorry) in the chat corner???

I never see either. Now I'm running the rest of the race with the
intention of getting ahead of that Lotus. At this point, I'm not
really bothered, I mean, I've done the same thing before although the
speed that he came into me was really way too fast for a simple
blunder. He should have either sent a sorry or at least waited for me
to get going before he took off. Giving him the benefit of the doubt,
I figure we could all pass around apologies and explainations after
the race.

I run a pretty shitty race blowing the engine once (most certainly
from abuse) and spinning it in the chicane a couple of times. I did
get within a sec before a couple of screwups put me behind the Lotus
by 18 seconds with 4 or so laps to go.

Well, the last few laps I string together a pretty good run and what
do you know... last lap, though the chicane and there's that Lotus
I've been hunting spinning down the straight. I make my pass as he's
trying to gather the thing back up.

Last hairpin and just as I'm making a typical turn in (not early, I
had just turned a mid 27 to his best of low 29) here comes
shit-for-brains at mach 4 to t-bone me.

OK, the race is over and before jumping on someone you have to wonder
how things looked to them. Between personalities and warps you just
never know what the other guy is thinking / seeing. Maybe he's about
to explain how he was just over e***d and pushed the braking point
too far or something. Or, maybe he thinks I screwed up and he's peeved
at me. I wait and I wait... nothing.

Finally I say; "TT, do you do that shit on purpose?"

He never replied...

Some races are boring, some are great, sometimes you do something
stupid, sometimes someone does something stupid to you, sometimes
somebody is an A-hole and sometimes people are great... All in all
it's great fun and you see a whole lot more good than bad.

After running online for a while now, I now am on the receiving end of
a whole lot more mistakes than I inflict on others (not to say I don't
blow it every now and then). As long as the mistake was honest then
I'm not bothered at all. The worst thing you can do though is hit
someone from behind, if you are following closely, you cannot brake at
your normal point, most likely you are going to have to brake early.
The more time online the better you will get at that.

Everyone was a newbie once and we need all the new *** we can get.

Get back in VROC, JP, before you pick up any bad habits from Surtees
:)

Randy

You can chat *during* the race? All I've ever seen is the connect/disconnect
announcements at the top corner of the screen (mind you, that's enough to
distract me into the nearest bales).

And yes there are both sorts of prat out there - those who take you off and
those get abusive after a racing accident (why does Michael Schumacher come
to mind? :). Also don't forget latency effects, on the one hand don't get
too close to other cars, and allow that some crashes happen because you
"weren't there" at that time for the other driver.

Tony Whitley
(Veteran of ooh, several, online races).

<snip> If you make a mistake a simple "sorry" and maybe a

Dude, I came into a Spa race last night just because you were there, I
figured I would have someone to race with!!! You were there a while
and the you disco, so I did not get to race with you. I did manage a
PB at Spa in the Cooper at 3:27:72 (is also my overall PB). I do not
know it that was this race or not as I spent many hours at Spa this
weekend.

Ignore most of the rude comments! I do, I manged to take out two
racers in a Pro Short last night, I felt bad, but what can you do. It
is just like in real racing. Just look at Parkes how many times have
you been wrecked by him or Surtees? I tend to be slow, but in this
race I had moved from dead last to 4th in the first lap. It was really
fun. Then I screwed up masta and two guys just barely missed me an
spun out at full throttle. Just bad luck for us all, as I had a car
that would only do 3:40s with me driving my ass off, top speed of 170.
The car was slower, but easier to drive. :-) Hehehahe a slower Cooper.

One thing I tried with GPL that I do not think I like is that I turned
off the in-car chat feature. This was distracting me in online racing.
Now I think there are times when it is needed so last night I turned
it back on. You can type messages to others, just do not see any
responses. You can still type SRY, but you don't have to see any
remarks. I also have noticed that many remarks are made that might
seem to be harsh, but the author means for the remark to be funny not
disrespectful.

If you see a race with me in it, join up and enjoy! Also take the
advice given in another response: try an F2/F3 race, they are very
fun! I love the Glen and Rouen at F2. Just be sure to notice how many
laps! made the mistake of joining a 30+ lap F2 race a the Glen, boy
was I tired after that.

SLG

(All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new
and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are
due to too many English classes/teachers)

<snipped VROC initiation>

It's not you who is being over-sensitive but they.  I doubt there is a
single VROC racer out there who has not been the cause of, or recipient
of driving that results in collisions.   Having been a regular racer
online for nearly a year (though not for at least the last couple of
weeks unfortunately) I have come to realise that it's just one of those
things and, if you cannot continue in the race, it's no problem as
there'll be another race along in short while.

To me VROC really isn't about the winning but the taking part.  Maybe
there are those out there who's egos are that fragile that they need to
prove themselves everytime they hit the track and for them it is always
the other guys fault.  However, if you get flamed deal with it in
whichever way you personally feel is appropriate at the time, whether
you want to stick up for yourself or say 'what the heck' is fine, as
long as your dealing with it doesn't mean that you've decided that you
won't be coming back.

Generally, I find that I cannot be bothered to waste my time proving I
was more right than the other guy.  I tell you, it saves a lot of time
and wasted effort.  If I'm not sure about whose fault it was I generally
apologise with a quick 's' or 'sry' and then continue on if my cars up
to it.  There are occasional times when I feel it's worth sticking up
for myself but usually I prefer to move on and let them have the high
*** pressure all to themselves.

So stick at it and eventually the good times will far outweigh the bad.
:)
--
Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

writes:

I'd say don't worry about it.  You just ran into(no pun) a couple of jerks.  I
don't have any problem with anyone jumping on one of my servers, as long as you
don't drive the wrong way...

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. +59.33

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Thank you, one and all, for support and sage advice. One expects trash talk
and insults playing Quake. I really didn't expect to run into it on VROC.
Naieve, perhaps...

Phil for the kind invitation, I'll take you up on it as soon as I spend a
little time driving an F2 car.
Eldred the Saintly for servers and another kind invitation.
Leong and Jim Allison for humor,
Randy for the race report (I love reading race reports!).
Tony for sharing my suprise that anyone has time to type during a race (I
was upside-down while typing my apology...8^)...).
Steve, sorry I missed the race. I was trying to decide if I'd just head back
into it, or write my original post, I decided on the latter. The lap times
being discussed were a bit intimidating in my state of mind at the time.
We'll get another opportunity, I'm sure.
Peter, Aubrey, Jan, Brett, and Don for support and practical advice.

I'll be spending some time drving alternate lines (inside, outside) and some
F2 cars, maybe even a Cooper (good idea!), and applying sandpaper liberally
to all (well, maybe not -all-) body parts to toughen my skin. My aim, to
become a competent and courteous driver. And if I take any of you out in the
process, be assured it's not intentional, it's just -part- of the
process...and damn it!...it's the main reason I spent $700 Canadian
upgrading this machine so that I could get a playable frame rate.  I wanna
race, and I'm gonna race, and I might even do it reasonably well in a while.
'Til then...thanks again, and I'll try to keep the damage to a minimum. See
ya on the track soon.

J. P. Hovercraft