rec.autos.simulators

The car or the driver?

Heckler 2oo

The car or the driver?

by Heckler 2oo » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:48:21




> > I'm kinda new to F1 but is there a driver that switched teams
> > and started to win/lose more races?  I'm wondering if JPM or MS
> > switched to Arrows or Minardi, would they be leading the pack.  If
> > they do, they are god.

> Villeneuve - BAR

> The car matters a lot.

I've never really rated Villeneuve much as a driver. He had the best car
that year... I'm not a huge fan of MS but he's one hell of a driver, maybe
even the best... until the next one comes along. I like Eddie Irvine though,
not one of the greatest drivers, but he's got style and is a huge
loudmouth... and ya gotta respect a guy who speaks his mind rather than
spouting the same old tired  lines.

Heckler

John DiFoo

The car or the driver?

by John DiFoo » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:50:01






> > Please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Williams have like 20hp
> > more than the Ferrari?  So does top speed matter that much since you
> > can lose at lot of time in the corners if you don't hit the apex all
> > the time?

> More HP means you can run more downforce and still get the same speed on
> the straights.  More downforce means you can get a better run coming out
> of the corner and are therefore more likely to be able to overtake
> someone.   >snip<

    Hmm I wonder if someone will design wings which alter their 'angle of
attack'
(using some servo system tied in with the brake and accelerator?) during
a lap, lowering it on the straights and increasing it in the turns?

    John DiFool

briGu

The car or the driver?

by briGu » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:04:26


Movable aerodynamic surfaces are explicitly forbidden by the current rules..

jason moy

The car or the driver?

by jason moy » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:44:00


Yep.  Jean Alesi, driving for Tyrrell in 90 (by that point not a
particularly competitive team) started the season in Phoenix by
qualifying 4th on Pirellis and leading from the start until Senna in
the McLaren caught him after approximately 20 laps in (if I remember
correctly).  The problem with the Pirellis is that they didn't hold up
very well over long runs, but they were very very quick early on and
during qualifying.

Jason

Dave Henri

The car or the driver?

by Dave Henri » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:46:15

"John DiFool">

    Jim Hall did that 30 + years ago with the Chapparall Can Am cars.  He
had a system where the rear wing laid flat until you pressed on the
brakes...then the wing would rotate down to full downforce mode.   The car
was sometimes referred to as "the Flipper"   I think it also almost killed
him when a rear wing mount broke and he suffered some pretty big injuries...
  Can anyone fill in my hazy memory?
dave henrie

Dave Henri

The car or the driver?

by Dave Henri » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:47:36

"briGuy" <
rules..

   Thats why the tie rods are shapped to  near winglike proportions in
design and movement????  :)
dave henrie

Haqsa

The car or the driver?

by Haqsa » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:15:01


No.  ;o)

briGu

The car or the driver?

by briGu » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:25:33


Well, I'm no scrutineer - here's what the FIA have to say:

(taken from FIA's Technical Regulations - www.fia.com)

3.15 Aerodynamic influence :

Any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance (with
the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 in the pit lane only)
:

    - Must comply with the rules relating to bodywork.

    - Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car
(rigidly secured means not         having any degree of freedom).

    - Must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.

I have heard that some designs for the control arms have been rejected by
the FIA in the past based on the above, but I haven't seen any of the design
details on this...

briGuy

Dave Henri

The car or the driver?

by Dave Henri » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:03:25




> >   Can anyone fill in my hazy memory?

> No.  ;o)

  shush!  ...on the Chapparall and Jim Hall...everything else IS to
fuzzy....  :)
dh
Stephen F

The car or the driver?

by Stephen F » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 18:55:08



> > At the end of the turbo era, the naturally aspirated engines were
> > quite competitive.
> <snip>

> Ye-es. Except that we were talking about 1990, and the last turbo year
> was 1988!

Oops.  I checked Forix to see when Minardi was performing, and you're of
course right.  Still, some of my better F1 memories are solid drives by
Capelli and Gugelmin in the March.

S.

David Ewin

The car or the driver?

by David Ewin » Sun, 24 Mar 2002 04:21:06


> "John DiFool">
> >     Hmm I wonder if someone will design wings which alter their 'angle of
> > attack'
> > (using some servo system tied in with the brake and accelerator?) during
> > a lap, lowering it on the straights and increasing it in the turns?

> >     John DiFool

>     Jim Hall did that 30 + years ago with the Chapparall Can Am cars.  He
> had a system where the rear wing laid flat until you pressed on the
> brakes...then the wing would rotate down to full downforce mode.   The car
> was sometimes referred to as "the Flipper"   I think it also almost killed
> him when a rear wing mount broke and he suffered some pretty big injuries...
>   Can anyone fill in my hazy memory?

You're right about Jim Hall's moving wing.  However, the wing was controlled by
a separate foot pedal. The car had automatic transmission, so there were was no
clutch pedal.  I believe the default position for the wing was to have full
downforce and you had to push the pedal to straighten it out.

You're memory about the crash, however, is faulty.  Hall was seriously injured
during the last race of the 1968 Can Am season at Las Vegas.  Lothar
Motschenbacher's (sp. ?) car dramatically slowed in front of him, causing
Hall's car to hit the back of it,  launching it in the air and landing upside
down.  Hall's legs were badly injured and he never raced again.  He, of course,
continued to design and build Chaparrals that others drove.

You may be thinking of when Formula One borrowed Hall's ideas, a few years
later.  Hall came out with the wing on his 1966 Chaparral 2E Can-Am car.
Formula One got around to it in 1968 (Lotus was the first, I believe), and did
a pretty poor job initially.  There were some *** F1 crashes due to
inadequately strong mounts.  This caused the FIA to ban the high wings, which
pissed Hall off.

 He then came back with some more radical designs to get around this, the
ultimate one being the Chaparral 2J "Sucker" car. This one had two snowmobile
engines sucking the air out from under the car.  The box like skirt of the car
would lower down, essentially creating a vacuum.  This car had phenomenal
grip.  It theoretically could be driven upside down. Jackie Stewart, who drove
it for one race, said he could go deeper into a turn with it then any car he
had ever driven. Unfortunately, it suffered reliability early on and never
finished a race.  Shortly thereafter, the other teams/drivers lobbied to have
the car banned, much to the detriment of the Can-Am series.  The Formula Libre
(anything goes) spirit of Can-Am was broken, Hall (the father of winged
aerodynamics, ground effects, telemetry) left the series, and it was never the
same.

Dave Ewing

--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing

*****************************************************

Dave Henri

The car or the driver?

by Dave Henri » Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:53:57

?
  Thanks Dave for the filler...I can still remember(probably wrongly tho..)
the ABC wide world of Sports doing a quick showcase on the old 2c
car....(everytime I saw the lat 90's BMW LMP cars I thought of that old
racer...)
dave henrie
ymenar

The car or the driver?

by ymenar » Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:23:48


>     Hmm I wonder if someone will design wings which alter their 'angle of
attack'
> (using some servo system tied in with the brake and accelerator?) during
> a lap, lowering it on the straights and increasing it in the turns?

There was some accusation of such cheating about two years back at the
Australian Grand Prix.  Pictures of cars, especially the Benetton and the
Ferrari, had their full rear wing tilted back at an angle on some pictures,
but others featured the full rear mount at a normal angle.  It was the high
speed stress and air flow that made the rear wing tilt at the bottom mount.

It's the reason why the BAR of Jacques Villeneuve lost it's rear wing (a
different reason from this year at the same GP) at high speed.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Nic

The car or the driver?

by Nic » Thu, 04 Apr 2002 04:53:32

At the moment, RS is better than JPM, if only because he can keep cool
and bring the car home without tripping over anybody. And he doesn't
have a MS magnet in the nose of his Williams. I think JPM has more raw
talent, and if he continues to improve at the rate he has over the
last 4 years (since I first saw him in a competitive car) then he will
be the next World Champion. Raikkonen has huge potential, the sooner
he leaves McLaren the better, in my opinion. Heidfeld has definitely
not come up to expectations, and if he doesn't do something soon I
don't think he will ever get a drive in a top team. Witness McLaren
cutting him down to bring in Raikkonen.

Button is the smoothest driver in Formula One. If you ever see an
onboard shot of him driving, he almost never puts any opposite lock on
because he is so good at balancing the car on the throttle. Most
smooth drivers (Damon Hill, Alain Prost) prefer an understeering car,
but JB prefers a car he can balance with his right foot. Excellent
technique, and he is better than JPM.

But that is all in my own personal opinion. You are welcome to your
own opinions, and you can't change mine, so I don't want to start a
slagging match over who is the best in F1, Okay? Cheers.

Nick.

Senninh

The car or the driver?

by Senninh » Thu, 04 Apr 2002 06:13:33


Actually he does, he just seemed to have the other pole facing
forward...

Would agree here. Ralf was, well, disappointing in early races in F1,
taking far longer to adapt and get up to speed than Juan. I didn't
like him much in CART (preferring Franchitti - hey, I'm Scottish!),
but he's been a breath of fresh air in F1.

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