rec.autos.simulators

The car or the driver?

David Ewin

The car or the driver?

by David Ewin » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:10:44


>  I honestly think the Williams is a better performing car
> overall, but if I'm not mistaken for one reason or another (reliability,
> crashes) the Willliams cars don't finish races as often as the Ferraris,
> therefore they haven't been scoring as well.  IIRC on a good day
> Hakkinen in the Williams was unbeatable.  My money's still on JPM for
> the championship.

Hakkinen never drove a Williams. He drove a McLaren.

Dave Ewing

--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing

*****************************************************

Mikkel Gram-Hanse

The car or the driver?

by Mikkel Gram-Hanse » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:43:22

Very interesting... kind of logical, but I never thought about it that way
before ;)
Mikkel

[SNIP]

[SNIP]

Heckler 2oo

The car or the driver?

by Heckler 2oo » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:22:43


year.

My mistake, so who IS using the Ferrari engines then?

And if Arrows are using the same engine as Jaguar, then it just goes to
highlight how bad the Jaguars are.

heckler

David Butter

The car or the driver?

by David Butter » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:47:06


<snip>
<snip>

...though Pierluigi Martini got one on the front row once (I assume it
rained partway through qualifying), and of course Damon Hill *very*
nearly won in Hungary in an Arrows.

--
"After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll,
really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

The GPL Scrapyard: Back again! http://www.btinternet.com/~gplscrapyard

The Carvalho Famil

The car or the driver?

by The Carvalho Famil » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:49:30

It's a package: driver, car, team and $. The team is a huge part of the
equation. MS knows that and has helped develop the Ferrari team (to
Rubens' disadvantage!). MS and Senna started in inferior equipment and
took positions with shear ability. It would take a while before MS could
win in an Arrows or Minardi, but he'd give them some great runs while
getting there.

About the $, two old sayings in racing:
1. Speed costs money; how fast do you want to go?
2. You can make a small fortune in racing. Start with a large fortune.

Check the budgets of the winning teams. Now check the Minardi budget.

Jim


>         I'm kinda new to F1 but is there a driver that switched teams
> and started to win/lose more races?  I'm wondering if JPM or MS
> switched to Arrows or Minardi, would they be leading the pack.  If
> they do, they are god.

jason moy

The car or the driver?

by jason moy » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:53:23


> I'm kinda new to F1 but is there a driver that switched teams
> and started to win/lose more races?  I'm wondering if JPM or MS
> switched to Arrows or Minardi, would they be leading the pack.  If
> they do, they are god.

Go take a look at Jacques Villeneuve's biography.

-Jason

J Sakari Salone

The car or the driver?

by J Sakari Salone » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:57:29



> <snip>
>> As far as drivers winning in lesser cars ... it can be done, but
>> only to an extent. Nobody could win a race in a Minardi.
> <snip>
> ...though Pierluigi Martini got one on the front row once (I assume it
> rained partway through qualifying), and of course Damon Hill *very*
> nearly won in Hungary in an Arrows.

I only started following F1 at the next year's American Grand Prix, but
AFAIK those were the times when Minardi was strongly in the mid-pack rather
than on the bottom. That race was the first race of 1990, and in the last
three races of 1989 Martini (also then in Minardi) had qualified 5th, 4th
and 3rd. Also, looks like he qualified in top ten five more times in 1990.

I have a very vague recollection of hearing that Pirelli supplied their
teams with very competitive qualifying tyres in those days.

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Haqsa

The car or the driver?

by Haqsa » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:08:26

D'oh!  Okay but I'm sticking to the rest of what I said. ;o)



> >  I honestly think the Williams is a better performing car
> > overall, but if I'm not mistaken for one reason or another
(reliability,
> > crashes) the Willliams cars don't finish races as often as the
Ferraris,
> > therefore they haven't been scoring as well.  IIRC on a good day
> > Hakkinen in the Williams was unbeatable.  My money's still on JPM
for
> > the championship.

> Hakkinen never drove a Williams. He drove a McLaren.

> Dave Ewing

> --
> *****************************************************
> David A. Ewing

> *****************************************************

Geoff Cri

The car or the driver?

by Geoff Cri » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:16:56


Sauber is using 2001's "Monza Spec" Ferrari engine.

Jaguar is having serious problems with their new car, the R3.

--
Remove "688" to reply.

Stephen F

The car or the driver?

by Stephen F » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:18:24


Villeneuve - BAR

The car matters a lot.

Stephen F

The car or the driver?

by Stephen F » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:21:12





> > <snip>
> >> As far as drivers winning in lesser cars ... it can be done, but
> >> only to an extent. Nobody could win a race in a Minardi.
> > <snip>

> > ...though Pierluigi Martini got one on the front row once (I assume it
> > rained partway through qualifying), and of course Damon Hill *very*
> > nearly won in Hungary in an Arrows.

> I only started following F1 at the next year's American Grand Prix, but
> AFAIK those were the times when Minardi was strongly in the mid-pack
rather
> than on the bottom. That race was the first race of 1990, and in the last
> three races of 1989 Martini (also then in Minardi) had qualified 5th, 4th
> and 3rd. Also, looks like he qualified in top ten five more times in 1990.

> I have a very vague recollection of hearing that Pirelli supplied their
> teams with very competitive qualifying tyres in those days.

At the end of the turbo era, the naturally aspirated engines were quite
competitive.  The turbos had boost restrictions (and also fuel efficiency
concerns, I think), whereas teams like March could take a well-developed
Cosworth and do quite well on certain tracks.

Stephen

Nick Govie

The car or the driver?

by Nick Govie » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:30:07

BMW has about 850bhp
Ferrari F2001 modified engine, about 820-825bhp
Mercedes Ilmor, about 800bhp

These are not official, but almost everbody has been quoting them, so I
guess they can't be far off. Also, the McLarens were about 1 sec a lap
behind the BMW at Sepang, which is about 50bhp.

It is true that a higher downforce car can be run with no reduction in top
speed if you have that much more bhp. Wait until hockenheim, spa and other
fast circuits (Sepang is quite fast, too) and see the Williams advantage
with more downforce through the twisty bits, and still the same top speed as
the Ferraris.

I don't think Montoya will win the championship this year, because I simply
don't thing he is good enough... yet. Next year my money is on him, but this
year I think Michael will do it again. How amazing are the next few years in
F1 going to be with Michael and JPM battling in out every race? It will be
the first time in ages in F1 where I won't mind which of those two comes out
on top, because they are both fantastic drivers.

If only Montoya would stop trying to prove himself by doing Michael at every
opportunity (turn 1, Sepang?). The onboard camera shows he didn't leave
enough room, there is a limit to how quickly you can turn your car,
especially on the dirty side of the track, and JPM didn't leave enough room.
There are 2 lines around that corner, and turn 2 is a hairpin left which he
would have been on the inside for.

I'm not bitter, I would just have really loved to see MS and JPM battling
for the WHOLE race.

Nick.

na_bike

The car or the driver?

by na_bike » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 04:44:49

On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:30:07 -0000, "Nick Govier"


>BMW has about 850bhp
>Ferrari F2001 modified engine, about 820-825bhp
>Mercedes Ilmor, about 800bhp

>These are not official, but almost everbody has been quoting them, so I
>guess they can't be far off. Also, the McLarens were about 1 sec a lap
>behind the BMW at Sepang, which is about 50bhp.

I know it's nitpicky, but the figures I've seen a lot from many
different sources says:

BMW at 870+
Ferrari at about 850
Mercedes/Ilmor slightly lower than the Ferrari

Even Minardi's Asiatech is quoted at over 800. Which is a _huge_
improvement from last year's(actually '99 spec) Cosworth at about
750-760.

Regarding BMW there's even rumours that it has hit 900hp in recent
revisions, although they deny it throroughly.

David G Fishe

The car or the driver?

by David G Fishe » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 05:49:28


RS is better than Montoya. Raikkonen is younger and much less experienced
but has impressed me more. Heidfeld and maybe even Button are right with him
as well.

David G Fisher

David Butter

The car or the driver?

by David Butter » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:00:42


<snip>

Ye-es. Except that we were talking about 1990, and the last turbo year
was 1988!

--
"After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll,
really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

The GPL Scrapyard: Back again! http://www.btinternet.com/~gplscrapyard


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