rec.autos.simulators

left foot braking....

Dan

left foot braking....

by Dan » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:23:49



>>Is left foot breaking really that hard? I've never had a problem doing
>>it while placing race games on my pc. Maybe I'm just a noob, but I
>>couldn't live without doing left foot breaking.

> I'm quite used to left-foot braking from racing karts and simming, but
> let me tell you doing it in the family sedan is no good idea. I tried
> it once for laughs and caused near-instant brake lockup, thankfully I
> was on my own at the time ;-)

> uwe

My driving instructor at Derek Daly said there is no reason to left foot
brake when on a paved road course.  Disagree?  Why?

Dan

Joachim Trens

left foot braking....

by Joachim Trens » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:44:33


> My driving instructor at Derek Daly said there is no reason to left foot
> brake when on a paved road course.  Disagree?  Why?

Yes, because many F1 drivers do it and they wouldn't if it didn't make
any sense <g>

But seriously, it's been discussed ad nauseam, and proven over and over
again with examples and telemetry, and still people come up and say it
doesn't make sense or can't be done for this reason or that.

Real race drivers do it because it gives them better car control, fast
sim racers do it for the same reason even if they have a choice - let's
face it. Left foot braking is as normal as unlinear steering or throttle
curves.

Achim

Eldre

left foot braking....

by Eldre » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:54:29

Do you have a drivers license?  Not trying to be offensive, but I have no way
of knowing how old you are.  Assuming you don't drive in real life:
Most people drive their real cars and brake with their right foot.  That's the
way new drivers are taught, that's the way most of us have been doing it for
years.  To make such a drastic change in style takes getting used to...
If you've never known anything else besides LFB, it seems weird to you.

Eldred
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Mitch_

left foot braking....

by Mitch_ » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:56:53

I did the same thing Uwe :)  I wonder why its so difficult in a real car
when it seems so natural with sims?

Mitch'



> > Is left foot breaking really that hard? I've never had a problem doing
> > it while placing race games on my pc. Maybe I'm just a noob, but I
> > couldn't live without doing left foot breaking.

> I'm quite used to left-foot braking from racing karts and simming, but
> let me tell you doing it in the family sedan is no good idea. I tried
> it once for laughs and caused near-instant brake lockup, thankfully I
> was on my own at the time ;-)

> uwe

> --
> mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
> Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
> Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
> GPG Fingerprint:  2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F  67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Uwe Schürkam

left foot braking....

by Uwe Schürkam » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:37:06


> My driving instructor at Derek Daly said there is no reason to left foot
> brake when on a paved road course.  Disagree?  Why?

Not really, but to get back to the family sedan, the pedal layout does
not endow left foot braking in the least. I guess the pedal setup in a
racecar will be different and provide more space between gas and brake
than in a production car.

Cheers,

uwe

--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
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Mike Donnelly J

left foot braking....

by Mike Donnelly J » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 02:23:50


I'd like to toss my $.02 in here.  In a street car there is one very
good reason not to LF brake, and occasionally it comes into play in
racing.  The reason not to LF brake is that it consumes more fuel that
way - once again, the tradeoff for more speed being an increase in
fuel usage.  Most of the time in racing, that's a non-issue, but every
once in a while it pops up.  In the grocery-getting, it's one reason
not to LF brake (along with the fact that using the LF technique
doesn't gain you much on the street).  In F1 fuel conservation rarely
comes into play.  In other series where it does crop up that's one way
of saving a few extra drops, along with getting off the gas early and
on late.

Mike

Uwe Schürkam

left foot braking....

by Uwe Schürkam » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 02:18:32


> I did the same thing Uwe :)  I wonder why its so difficult in a real car
> when it seems so natural with sims?

Soul brother ;-) Aren't we all just big boys with a driving license
sometimes? The thought makes me smile ;-)

uwe

--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint:  2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F  67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Haqsa

left foot braking....

by Haqsa » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 02:43:51

The power brakes in most production cars are much more sensitive than in a
race car, so you need a lighter touch.  On top of that production cars have
the brake bias much further forward than in a race car, since they have to
work with the worst case loading condition.  These two things combined make
it much easier to lock up the fronts than you are used to in a sim.  But
with a light touch it still works.  I sometimes LFB in my Stratus, just to
loosen it up a bit.


alex

left foot braking....

by alex » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:11:26




>> My driving instructor at Derek Daly said there is no reason to left
>> foot brake when on a paved road course.  Disagree?  Why?

> Not really, but to get back to the family sedan, the pedal layout does
> not endow left foot braking in the least.

I guess we've driven different cars. In a [very few] cars I drove, I could
left foot brake just fine (except the cases with manual transmission).
Heel-and-toe would be a probelm though. Cars makers seem to enjoy placing
gas and throttle too far away vertically :(

Alex.

alex

left foot braking....

by alex » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:36:48




<snip>
>>>Is left foot breaking really that hard? I've never had a problem doing
>>>it while placing race games on my pc. Maybe I'm just a noob, but I
>>>couldn't live without doing left foot breaking.

>>Do you have a drivers license?  Not trying to be offensive, but I have
>>no way of knowing how old you are.  Assuming you don't drive in real
>>life: Most people drive their real cars and brake with their right
>>foot.  That's the way new drivers are taught, that's the way most of us
>>have been doing it for years.  To make such a drastic change in style
>>takes getting used to... If you've never known anything else besides
>>LFB, it seems weird to you.

>>Eldred

> I'd like to toss my $.02 in here.  In a street car there is one very
> good reason not to LF brake, and occasionally it comes into play in
> racing.  The reason not to LF brake is that it consumes more fuel that
> way - once again, the tradeoff for more speed being an increase in
> fuel usage.  Most of the time in racing, that's a non-issue, but every
> once in a while it pops up.  In the grocery-getting, it's one reason
> not to LF brake (along with the fact that using the LF technique
> doesn't gain you much on the street).  In F1 fuel conservation rarely
> comes into play.  In other series where it does crop up that's one way
> of saving a few extra drops, along with getting off the gas early and
> on late.

> Mike

LF braking doesn't increase fuel consumption by itself, it is throttle-
trailing that does it. And in a street car there's no real reason to trail
the throttle (unlike the racing where it's done to balance the car).
In the street car one would probably trail the throttle only when entering
the corner very fast and trying to overcome massive understeer (which is
hardly regular street driving style), in the case of [very] emergency
braking, when he hits the brakes while lifting off the throttle or in the
driving on snow, which is a very different case, because balancing the car
becomes quite important even in the street driving (particularly, if one
didn't bother to change his summer tyres ;->).

On somewhat related note, I wonder how people downshift in the street cars
(manual). For example, you exit the highway and the exit ramp turns and
tightens. Let's say reasonable speed for the final turn on the ramp is
50km/h (which happens to be a speed limit in that area too) and you
approach that turn at 100km/h. Braking has to be done with right foot,
because of downshifting and near the final turn it is necessary to put in
2nd gear (It depends on the car, but in most of them one will want lower
gear for 50 km/h than for 100km/h). However heel-and-toe is problematic due
to pedal layout which makes it impossible to give some gas to match revs.
The only way I see is to shift at the precise moment when the revs are
close to the right match. But it looks a bit more complicated operation
that one would expect to perform in a regular street driving.

Alex.

Mike Donnelly J

left foot braking....

by Mike Donnelly J » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:31:25

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:36:48 GMT,





><snip>
>>>>Is left foot breaking really that hard? I've never had a problem doing
>>>>it while placing race games on my pc. Maybe I'm just a noob, but I
>>>>couldn't live without doing left foot breaking.

>>>Do you have a drivers license?  Not trying to be offensive, but I have
>>>no way of knowing how old you are.  Assuming you don't drive in real
>>>life: Most people drive their real cars and brake with their right
>>>foot.  That's the way new drivers are taught, that's the way most of us
>>>have been doing it for years.  To make such a drastic change in style
>>>takes getting used to... If you've never known anything else besides
>>>LFB, it seems weird to you.

>>>Eldred

>> I'd like to toss my $.02 in here.  In a street car there is one very
>> good reason not to LF brake, and occasionally it comes into play in
>> racing.  The reason not to LF brake is that it consumes more fuel that
>> way - once again, the tradeoff for more speed being an increase in
>> fuel usage.  Most of the time in racing, that's a non-issue, but every
>> once in a while it pops up.  In the grocery-getting, it's one reason
>> not to LF brake (along with the fact that using the LF technique
>> doesn't gain you much on the street).  In F1 fuel conservation rarely
>> comes into play.  In other series where it does crop up that's one way
>> of saving a few extra drops, along with getting off the gas early and
>> on late.

>> Mike
>LF braking doesn't increase fuel consumption by itself, it is throttle-
>trailing that does it. And in a street car there's no real reason to trail
>the throttle (unlike the racing where it's done to balance the car).
>In the street car one would probably trail the throttle only when entering
>the corner very fast and trying to overcome massive understeer (which is
>hardly regular street driving style), in the case of [very] emergency
>braking, when he hits the brakes while lifting off the throttle or in the
>driving on snow, which is a very different case, because balancing the car
>becomes quite important even in the street driving (particularly, if one
>didn't bother to change his summer tyres ;->).

>On somewhat related note, I wonder how people downshift in the street cars
>(manual). For example, you exit the highway and the exit ramp turns and
>tightens. Let's say reasonable speed for the final turn on the ramp is
>50km/h (which happens to be a speed limit in that area too) and you
>approach that turn at 100km/h. Braking has to be done with right foot,
>because of downshifting and near the final turn it is necessary to put in
>2nd gear (It depends on the car, but in most of them one will want lower
>gear for 50 km/h than for 100km/h). However heel-and-toe is problematic due
>to pedal layout which makes it impossible to give some gas to match revs.
>The only way I see is to shift at the precise moment when the revs are
>close to the right match. But it looks a bit more complicated operation
>that one would expect to perform in a regular street driving.

>Alex.

The 'street' answer to that one is to slow down way before you shift.
That's what all the driving instructors would say.  The other thing to
do would be to use engine braking, which puts a lot of strain on the
engine leading to one famous American car builder to remark that
engines built to (engine) brake usually do (break that is).

So, on the street driving 'normally' it would be 'break-shift-merge'.
If you're feeling adventurous then you might brake a little,
downshift, blipping the throttle and brake a little more (if
necessary).  Not recommended nor advised, just an alternate technique.

Mike

Joachim Trens

left foot braking....

by Joachim Trens » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 16:07:40


> Not really, but to get back to the family sedan, the pedal layout does
> not endow left foot braking in the least. I guess the pedal setup in a
> racecar will be different and provide more space between gas and brake
> than in a production car.

Pedal layout aside, I think the main reason why people have probs in
real cars when they try left foot braking is that with their right foot,
they're used to counter-balance the forward-G created by the braking.
With their left foot, they are not. It's a matter of training the brain
until this happens subconsciously. Some achieve that faster, for others
it takes longer.

Then again, I'm pretty much equally good with my left and right hand.
Maybe others are just better with their right foot than with their left?

Achim

Alan L

left foot braking....

by Alan L » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:22:15

I'm with Mike.  I usually hold the clutch in once the speed gets to low for
the gear.  By the time I'm ready to engage it, I'll need just over 2k RPM
which is easy to get with a little gas.  I rarely need 2500+, and if I do, I
actually will brake a little later/harder and heel-toe through the gears.
Ususally that's only when the ramp hits a light, the left turn light is
green, and I'm probably close enough to make it.

Anyway, the secret to heel-toe in my car (Integra... stock, so no jokes!)
was pedal covers.  Ya know... those $15 things you can buy at auto parts
stores.  They're wider and close the gap.  I can heel-toe pretty comfortably
in the aforementioned situation.  Mind you, I'm never braking so hard that I
have to rip through the gears or can't comfortably stop should the light
turn, and I likely rarely break 4500 RPM (not much with an 8k redline) when
blipping.  There really isn't need for anything beyond that, because at that
point, you really ought to think about pulling it down a notch or two.

Alan

John DiFoo

left foot braking....

by John DiFoo » Mon, 28 Jun 2004 02:32:05

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:11:26 GMT,





>>> My driving instructor at Derek Daly said there is no reason to left
>>> foot brake when on a paved road course.  Disagree?  Why?

>> Not really, but to get back to the family sedan, the pedal layout does
>> not endow left foot braking in the least.
>I guess we've driven different cars. In a [very few] cars I drove, I could
>left foot brake just fine (except the cases with manual transmission).
>Heel-and-toe would be a probelm though. Cars makers seem to enjoy placing
>gas and throttle too far away vertically :(

>Alex.

Couldn't you use the left foot to simultaneously depress both the
clutch and brake, and use the right foot to match the revs?
Or is it more complicated than that (or those pedals are too
far apart typically)...

          John DiFool

Pez

left foot braking....

by Pez » Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:29:20

clutch pedal needs to be fully depressed, a brake pedal hardly moves.

pez


> On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:11:26 GMT,




> >>> My driving instructor at Derek Daly said there is no reason to left
> >>> foot brake when on a paved road course.  Disagree?  Why?

> >> Not really, but to get back to the family sedan, the pedal layout does
> >> not endow left foot braking in the least.
> >I guess we've driven different cars. In a [very few] cars I drove, I
could
> >left foot brake just fine (except the cases with manual transmission).
> >Heel-and-toe would be a probelm though. Cars makers seem to enjoy placing
> >gas and throttle too far away vertically :(

> >Alex.

> Couldn't you use the left foot to simultaneously depress both the
> clutch and brake, and use the right foot to match the revs?
> Or is it more complicated than that (or those pedals are too
> far apart typically)...

>           John DiFool


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