rec.autos.simulators

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

John Walla

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by John Walla » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00


No, I'm stating that the terms are used _within_this_newsgroup_ to
denote different subsets of the "auto racing game" genre.

Which is going to be rather impossible since we don't quark level
proton drives to model. If they make a computer model of what it will
be that is one thing, but in that sense the cart is being put before
the horse. Auto-sims take something which is there and model it as
accurately s they can (ability, budget, desire, whatever). Computer
modelling creates something which is not yet there, therefore accuracy
to the real world is of no relevance, nor is being judged against it -
the area where a simulation of real life (like an auto-sim) will often
live or die.

Cheers!
John

John Walla

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by John Walla » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00



>What happened to "precise" and "all"?  Now we have "most" and "broadly
>similar"

I will use "precise" and "all" if you like, but if the Oxford
dictionary chooses to say "create" and the Chambers says "model"
you're out with the semantics card again.

See above...

You said that there is no black and white - if you have shades of grey
inbetween then by definition you have black and white as the defining
points at either end.

I mentioned it as one being black, the other white - that was my
point.

Ah, my point....

So then by extension of that logic black and white, in any form, do
not exist presumably?

Show them Lankhor's F1 "simulation" when it's released, they'll change
their minds.... :-)

No, and there is the key point. Actually (way back in the mists of
time!) I think someone mentioned buying a game that sucked, and the
discussion w

I could argue that "recreate", as the intransitive verb form of
recreation, is an integral part of all sims since we play them to
relax and have fun - that would of course be an approximately equal
amount of semantical nonsense as your assertion that simulations do
not try to recreate the experience of driving a race-car. Let's not
hide behind dictionary definitions which are obviously not written
with auto-sims as their primary target.

Not in the sense of an auto-simulation. One mirrors life, the other
prcedes it by model what may be made later - the precepts and demands
are different.

You could make a "simulation" in the *** sense of the word, and in
the computer modelling sense of the word, but it would not be in the
same manner as an auto-simulation. How would you know if the flight
model was correct? Of course you wouldn't - in GPL people comment on
the fact that suspension angles are off, colours are slightly
different, engine notes not quite bang-on - that is simulating as
recreating a real world experience, and that is when it is important
to get it right. If a Ferrari 550 didn't exist I could cobble together
NFS3 and tell you it's a perfect simulation of a car that Ferrari
never made - do you see the difference? Maybe the difference is only
important for me, but I see the two as being fundamentally different
in approach.

Not me - truckloads of fun but far from realistic (especially UK and
US versions unfortunately).

It is, I suppose, a form of sim - but what would be the point?
Products like GP2, F1RS etc put a lot of time and effort into creating
a car model because we _know_ (broadly speaking) how a car will react
in a number of given situations - there are so many variables of
setup, conditions, control combinations etc that if you cobble
something together the car is bound to behave pretty strangely at
various points and people will notice. In a "space-sim" no-one could
ever argue the toss about whether it really could pull a turn that
tight or if your proton-quark drive would stall if you forgot to
double declutch into second. I doubt the same level of simulation
would be appropriate.

Likewise, although I've never imagined them to be called sims! The
Space Shuttle one, that could probably claim to be a sim, but then the
whole point of the Space Shuttle is that _nothing_ out of the ordinary
should happen which doesn't sound much fun to me. I'd want at least a
forward firing machine gun and perhaps a few small rocks to throw out
the window on the way down...

I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole - litigation looms in the future
methinks.

Cheers!
John

Mark C Dod

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by Mark C Dod » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

The following is my humble opinion. Please, no flames.....

To classify as a sim an auto game needs four things....

1) Real setup options. e.g. The same choice of tyre compounds, suspension
settings, rake, trail, camber, gearing, ride height, rebound etc as the real
car/bike is is trying to simulate. These settings need to realistically
alter the physics and handling of the car/bike.

2) They physics need to not only realistically take into account the
car/bike settings but weather conditions such as hunidity and track
tempereture.

3) A realistic career mode. Racedays should be spread to race weekends. All
of the free practice, practice and qualifying session that are involved in
the real race should be allowed.

4) Realistic AI. The AI drivers/riders should react different according to
the conditions and season positions. If they can win the championship by
beating you on the day they should be more aggresive. If they are better in
the rain than other then this should be simulated. A bit of "personality"
should be easy to simulate.

1 to 3 are mostly covered by what most people in this forum consider sims.
GPL, GP2, Superbikes and Viper racing.

Number 4 is yet to be really tackled by anybody

This is my humble opinion.


> So who decides what's a "simulation"? I've seen it talked about in
> here since I've been a regular (approx 18 months). So who decides? Well,
> no one it seems. How could they? It annoys me to see the likes of Papy
> and Crammond giving a free ride to other companies who come along and
> use the word "simulation" to sell there products. Obviously I am saying
> this upon the release of SCGT. I have only seen the demo, but hey, it's
> their "demo" and it simply gives me the impression of them not
> particularly being committed to making this game as "sim" (diehards
> version of "sim") as possible. However, there have been far worse cases
> of this than SCGT also. It might get better with patches and updates but
> when something is released like this I lose interest fast. Fool me
> once.................
>      Anyway, what we have here is a very grey area of what is a sim and
> does a company have a right to use this word in there description of
> what they're trying to sell us. I think the only way to keep companies
> honest is to legally force them to reveal exactly what aspects of
> reality are recreated in their software and to what degree. So any
> racing game that is sold with the word "Simulation" must then declare a
> breakdown of exactly what is being simulated and also give some
> indication as to what depth also. The "legitimate" sim companies have
> specific areas to compete against each other in and those looking for a
> piggy back on them start to slip off fast. Gotta be a good thing.
> Obviously the industry would be doing it's own policing ie checking that
> a companies claims were legitimate. Biggest problem of course is
> classification and who does the classifying. Hmmmmmm...........

Mark C Dod

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by Mark C Dod » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

I love Viper. Just can't divide my limited PC time between Superbike, GPL
and TOCA 2, Viper  as well as the newly aquired SCGT. Tend to spend a
month on one then it gets boxed a forgot for quite a while.

> What?!  Someone besides me touting the many virtues of Viper Racing?!
> Inconcievable! <G>

> -- JB



> >What about the likes of Viper racing? Great "sim" mode with a top fun
> >"arcade" mode? Double clasification?
> >Just wondering..

> >-ilmore

^Frett

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by ^Frett » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

Hello Fellow R.A.S Readers;
I have read as many posts as I can on this subject. I've read
many great "subjective" opinions. Also using the definition in
the Oxford Dictionary? Hmmm? Not sure here?
Hopefully without opening more of Pandora's Box I have a
few questions. No comments..
#1 When you buy a so-called sim in a store what category
is it found on the shelf/shelves?
# 2 Are any-all sims-arcades made by the afor mentioned
companies; Made-designed as games or sims?
#3 If you have somekind of panel-type who would give a
seal of approval as a sim & who'd monitor this group?
#4 I understand all posts in r.a.s are for discussion.. Has
this subject gone into a "hair-splitting" issue of what is &
what is not?
As all other posts; This post is entirely subjective!
Cheers Thom_j. aka ^Fretts..

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ymenar

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by ymenar » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00


Well for me it would be an online store.. "Entertainment software/racing
simulations"  ;-)

But for 99.9% of the people they buy it in the game section.

It depends.  We know they are games, but this is not the point.  They are
all games.  Some of them are targeted more into the arcade-type racing,
others into the sim-type racing.

Me and me, of course  8)

This is the oldest debate of all.  We are fighting about the sim vs. arcade
debate for years. Everybody has their own list of what is and what is not.
It's like people arguing about their top5 movies. Everybody has their
opinions, and our egos take much place in this.  So join the discussion with
us. Personnally I feel there's not many sims, many "was sims", and many bad
sims.  My list also changed with the time.  Icr2 and N2, that I considered
as pure sim before, is now a "was sim".  The same goes for GP2.  They live
with the limitations of their era and game engine.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

^Frett

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by ^Frett » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

ymenard I believe I did not articulate enough here:
**" # 2 Are any-all sims-arcades made by the afor mentioned
companies; Made-designed as games or sims?"**
Change to:
 # 2 Are any-all sims-arcades made by the afor mentioned
companies; Made-designed as arcade-sim games & what
seems to determine {or deciding factors} in making these
categories arcade verses sim? (yikes tough to verbalize!}
Revised; Thom_j. aka ^Fretts..



> > #1 When you buy a so-called sim in a store what category
> > is it found on the shelf/shelves?

> Well for me it would be an online store.. "Entertainment software/racing
> simulations"  ;-)

> But for 99.9% of the people they buy it in the game section.

> > # 2 Are any-all sims-arcades made by the afor mentioned
> > companies; Made-designed as games or sims?

> It depends.  We know they are games, but this is not the point.  They are
> all games.  Some of them are targeted more into the arcade-type racing,
> others into the sim-type racing.

> > #3 If you have somekind of panel-type who would give a
> > seal of approval as a sim & who'd monitor this group?

> Me and me, of course  8)

> > #4 I understand all posts in r.a.s are for discussion.. Has
> > this subject gone into a "hair-splitting" issue of what is &
> > what is not?

> This is the oldest debate of all.  We are fighting about the sim vs. arcade
> debate for years. Everybody has their own list of what is and what is not.
> It's like people arguing about their top5 movies. Everybody has their
> opinions, and our egos take much place in this.  So join the discussion with
> us. Personnally I feel there's not many sims, many "was sims", and many bad
> sims.  My list also changed with the time.  Icr2 and N2, that I considered
> as pure sim before, is now a "was sim".  The same goes for GP2.  They live
> with the limitations of their era and game engine.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
> -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
> -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
> -- May the Downforce be with you...

> "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

  no_spam.n2rif1.vcf
< 1K Download
Daxe Rexfor

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by Daxe Rexfor » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00


Huh?

daxe

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ddjhenri

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by ddjhenri » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

( I apologize for the snippage Mark, :}  )

  I tend to apply the Need For Speed rule.
If it is just a tunnel/track/rails ride then it is arcade.  If you are
merely dodging oncomming
traffic then it is no more than the original Atari 4-bit game of move left
and right while
advancing up the screen.
  so games like Test Drive, Need for Speed etc clearly fall into the arcade
group.
Now up until GPL, it was easier to classify the "real" sims.  Setups,
pitstops, real world
conditions...i.e.  if tire wear slows ya down, lets have it.  Gas
Mileage..things like that.
include enough real world items and you are in the sim camp.
  I haven't driven the final release of SCGT but little things that bug me
are generic
dashboards and no control in the pits.  Hey!  I'm a big boy..I can find my
own bleeping
pit stall.  {ps  wasn't there a WC event last week where a Nascar driver
missed his pit?}
  I do have some problem classifying the fake racing games like Nas rev and
the Pysgnosis F1 type
racers.  perhaps we should have sub category's to the sim genre..like
1)  Sims:  Full blown physics, seasons, ai, etc.
2)  Racers:  Anything from Daytona USA to Power F1 where the "game" is to
finish first
3) drivers:  NFS type games where driving is the key element.  Sure you may
go fast but
                    there is no real race here.

  I would think #'s 2 & 3 would have the most entries...pity.
dave henrie


>The following is my humble opinion. Please, no flames.....

>To classify as a sim an auto game needs four things....

>1) Real setup options. e.g>
>2) They physics need to not only realistically take into account the
>car/bike settings but weather conditions such as hunidity and track
>tempereture.
>3) A realistic career mode>
>4) Realistic AI.
>Number 4 is yet to be really tackled by anybody

>This is my humble opinion.


>> So who decides what's a "simulation"? I've seen it talked about in
>> here since I've been a regular (approx 18 months). So who decides? Well,
>> no one it seems. How could they? It annoys me to see the likes of Papy
>> and Crammond giving a free ride to other companies who come along and
>> use the word "simulation" to sell there products. Obviously I am saying
>> this upon the release of SCGT. I have only seen the demo, but hey, it's
>> their "demo" and it simply gives me the impression of them not
>> particularly being committed to making this game as "sim" (diehards
>> version of "sim") as possible. However, there have been far worse cases
>> of this than SCGT also. It might get better with patches and updates but
>> when something is released like this I lose interest fast. Fool me
>> once.................
>>      Anyway, what we have here is a very grey area of what is a sim and
>> does a company have a right to use this word in there description of
>> what they're trying to sell us. I think the only way to keep companies
>> honest is to legally force them to reveal exactly what aspects of
>> reality are recreated in their software and to what degree. So any
>> racing game that is sold with the word "Simulation" must then declare a
>> breakdown of exactly what is being simulated and also give some
>> indication as to what depth also. The "legitimate" sim companies have
>> specific areas to compete against each other in and those looking for a
>> piggy back on them start to slip off fast. Gotta be a good thing.
>> Obviously the industry would be doing it's own policing ie checking that
>> a companies claims were legitimate. Biggest problem of course is
>> classification and who does the classifying. Hmmmmmm...........

Paul Jone

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by Paul Jone » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

Ah, linguistics! The problem with dictionary definitions is that they describe the
"use" of a word. They are descriptive and not proscriptive. They can only be
precise if the common use is precise - i.e. the word "nine***" has a very precise
meaning upon which every dictionary and almost every English speaker will agree.
However "simulation" does not fall into that bracket and you will often see a range
of definitions in any dictionary to describe the varying usages of a word. Words
like "wicked" and "cool" have acquired new meanings that are already reflected in
modern dictionaries. This is not purely slang - English is a flexible and
ever-changing language without a Francais or Espanol Society to limit and restrict
what is and what is not "good English".
Where definitions can be precise, however, in within a framework of a
non-linguistic discipline. For example, the word "power" has very many usages and
thus many definitions in dictionaries. Within the discipline of Physics, "power"
has a very precise definition.
The word base "simulat-" has, according to 3 dictionaries I have here, several
different meanings (usages), none of which relate precisely to automative
simulations sold for entertainment purposes. However that does not proclude
"simulation" having a precise meaning within the framework of this n.g. - not one
as well defined as "power" is for physicists but one which we all understand. There
is almost universal agreement here as to what is and what is not a "simulation".
The opposite of simulation, here, is "arcade". It is a universally accepted scale.
At the one end is GPL that meets many, but not all, of the current requirements for
a "simulation", it's pretty dark, but not exactly black. There is no need to
enumerate them here we all know what they are. At the other end of the scale is NFS
- an "arcade" game and again there is no need to enumerate why is is so - we all
know why. NFS is pretty light, but not exactly white.
In between GPL and NFS are all the grey items - Viper and MGP are pretty dark grey,
TOCA and Gran Turismo are mid shades.
There is no need to get into linguistic arguments here - this IS the use od the
word. Linguistics ends up in the mires of Frege and Russell and the paradox of
Plato's beard and simply makes you realise that analysis of language is futile.
Cheers,
Paul
ymenar

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by ymenar » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00


Hmm ok (I think I understood).

I guess it's just a development thing.  Some developers want to produce an
arcade racer.  There is multiple of reasons.  It's a nice market, where you
can produce on both PC and consoles.  Since the mass market will easily get
tired of a software and jump to another, you need to make him happy and
quickly.

Thus you need to create easier challenges, to as I said make him happy so he
will continue with thus the same software.  It's also easier to do in a
sense that you can go around the physics laws and create a handling that is
easier.  But at the same time, the arcade racing market is full of titles,
so it's difficult to create a title that will be over the others.  One that
goes into my mind is Powerslide.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Byron Forbe

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00

Great idea. See my followup.

> Regarding this whole topic, what if there were some sort of organization of sim
> racing fans which would grant companies their seal of approval for the box of a
> game after checking it against certain criteria? I think in a lot of cases,
> features are left out or deemed "unnecessary" due to time and budget
> restraints. If we could form something like that, and make it mean something,
> then perhaps companies would be encouraged to make the time for those features
> in order to meet the criteria for the seal. Just a thought...

Byron Forbe

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00


> 7) It all comes down to one's definition and who is to say that yours should
> be "law".  There is no absolute black and white, but a whole range of greys.

   Well, there are definantly black and whites. Something is either
modeled or it isn't for starters. And then we can talk to what degree.
Seems pretty black and white to me.

  "Upset"s a strong word. It's more a case of insulted intelligence. Did
you see the reviews of CPR. Say no more.

   I have not purchased SCGT and might not. Unless patches/updates bring
it up to par. But even then, on principle alone, I might not. Possibly
the key component of a **sim** these days is online play ie competition
Vs real opponents. And the computer controlled pitstops turn me off too.

   Trivia depending on how seriously you take your sim racing. To me and
many it's a sport. To others a bit of fun. In any case, how seriously
it's taken, as with anything, determines it's greatness.

David Mast

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by David Mast » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00


No flames.  I'll even refrain from making this a semantic debate :-)

First, you are real tough, anyone ever thell you that?  :-)

So, none are sims then?

I'd be less restrictive.  I won't say what is or isn't a sim, but I will say
what I look for in a flight or auto sim:

Realistic physics
Realistic AI
Good graphics
Good framerate

I'd like:
Lots of cars, each with individual handling,***pit, graphics like that of
the real one.
Real tracks, well modeled

The career or upgrade as you earn are interesting and make a nice ***
environment, but not req'd for me.

I could get more specific, but it's late.

David Mast

"Simulation" lost it's meaning???????

by David Mast » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00


>  I haven't driven the final release of SCGT but little things that bug me
>are generic dashboards

I too would very much like nice, representative***pits.  But I don't think
it disqualifies it as a sim (not saying that you explicityl said that).

I find I appreciate having the few seconds to figure out if I wanted the
damage fixed, tires replaced, and most importantly a *** calc on how much
fuel to take.  In a real race, your chief would be doing a lot of that for
you.  Having the slight respite does help in quickly trying to make all those
decisions.  To get us all on the same page, I would like pit control to be an
option.


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