rec.autos.simulators

Don't hold yer breath. There have never been any in any of the GT series.

--
Mark Foster, Brighton, Sussex, UK

PGP Fingerprint: 3342 C02C 7BE8 3FE4 AAC5  8BB2 03B7 9263 DDF2 04C1
        --------------------------------------------------
  "There are no such useless words as, 'I didn't have a chance.'"
                                                    [Driving, HMSO]

I prefer my racing simulations to model the effects of driving a car.
If Out Run had an inside realistic***pit view, would it be a racing
simulation?

Once again, get GT4, get a wheel, turn off the aids and play it for a
week, then come back with your new opinion.  For me, the sensation of
driving the RUF tuned Porsches, that feeling of natural oversteer with
the weight over the rear wheels has never been as accurately simulated
as in GT4 (nope, not even GTR - but GTR must be better because it has a
***pit view, right?!?).

Also with the GT cars, been driving a 350Z JGTC car recently, I don't
know what tyres I'm on but after about 7 or 8 laps they just start
moving beyond their peak and slightly losing some grip and you can
really feel the car start to slide a bit more. I actually prefer it in
this state because when the tyres are at their peak it can be a bit
'point-and-squirty', but the subtle 4-wheel-drift that sets in is much
easier to control imo.  Plus if you cook the rears you can feel the car
getting a bit tail-happy.  These feelings I have never experienced so
beautifully done in any other 'I've got a***pit view so I must be a
simulator' game.

So don't fall into the trap of GT4 = PS2 game and no***pit view
(although I personally despise***pit views), it must be rubbish.
Actually swallow your pride and try it out.  No point cutting off your
nose to spite your face.  If GT4 was a PC game then it would be one of
everybody's favourites in this newsgroup.

   And how does that RUF feel after you have body slammed another car
   into the armco  to finish a turn?

  Please don't be silly,  a***pit is merely the starting point.  I
  want to be immersed.  I just don't get that 'drivin' feel when I'm
  floating above a car.  I'm glad you enjoy the GT series.  But the
  small fields, lack of damage, lack of a proper incar view and the
  childish speedup/slowdown ai are like blindfolds over my eyes.  I
  can't see the beauty of the game because of the other things blinding
  me.
  Does it have league capability?(tools like results texts that can be
  printed etc)  Does it have online?   I tell ya.. I'm suprised nobody
  has filed a lawsuit based on the pre-release features and the actual
  product.  If I had gone out and bought a PS2 soley for the anticipated
  online play, then bought the game and found out it was not what they
  promised?  $150 for the PS2,  $100 for a wheel.  $50 for the game.
  memory card $$  A shark lawyer could quickly turn that into a class
  action suit.  

  If GT4 WAS a PC title, it would most likely fall into that category of
  titles like Porche Unleashed, or Mercedes Benz Racing.  Titles that
  darn near everyone likes but hardly anyone uses due to the lack of
  community building.  Is GPL the finest example of physics today?  No!
  Do they still have an active mod/trackbuilding community YES!  Can
  GT1,2 or 3  say the same thing?

  To me, titles like GT4 are similar to ***.  If you can't get
  the ***, you get the hand.  Nothing wrong with mr hand...just it's
  NOT an ***.  My nose will stay squashed on my face like always.  I'll
  toy with GT4 someday at my son's house, but then I'll have to go home
  and practice for my next league event.(shameless plug for TPTCC)

dave henrie

My experience is located in between your two positions. I like playing both.
But i also realise that they are very different products. GT4 is not a
racing simulator. It's a game. What makes it fun is the incredible number of
street cars that you get to drive on a racetrack. Cars that you would never
find anywhere else. For the DFP owners, the force feedback implementation is
simply amazing and the wheel calibrates itself every time you turn on the
console. There is a multiplayer component. I have played at a LAN party with
my friends and and we did an endurance race with four teams of three
drivers. It was a blast. I had more fun there than playing online against a
bunch of strangers.

PC simulators are more realistic but they are aimed at a niche market. GTR's
sales won't even come close to the ones of the PC version of NFS Underground
2. A fact that makes me very sad.

Well you don't float above the car, you can be fixed to the roof (the
exact same view that I use in NR2003 to avoid having 60% of screen real
estate taken up with dashboard), and driver's view (but no dash).

Oh and you can play GT4 online using xLink Kai.

It's funny that people split driving 'software' (can't think of a word)
into 'games' and 'sims'.

GTR, GPL, NR2003 etc etc are all computer games, because they are
played by people using a computer.  They are not running on
purpose-built hardware with a***pit and screens all around.  MS
Flight Sim is a game, if you want to see a flight simulator go to a
flight training airbase.  In the same way, GTR, NR2003, F1C etc are not
simulators.  Yes they try to be as accurate as possible, and to some
extent they succeed, but you can't simulate racecars in realtime on
desktop PCs.  For example, the spring rates of F1 suspension are too
high for a desktop PC to calculate, even if using 100% cpu.  Factor in
graphics, sound, gameplay, all the other physics stuff, and you have no
chance.

There is a scale of 'simulation' then, and all driving 'software' sits
on it somewhere.  Way over to the left somewhere are games like Daytona
USA and Sega Rally, and yes they are simulations in the ras sense, just
not very good ones at all.  Over to the right are the GTR, NR2003, GPL
brigade, being as accurate as they possibly can on puny desktop PCs,
but nicely glossing over the fact that if Michelin, Pirelli and
Bridgestone have very little knowledge of the chemical and mechanical
interactions between the tyre and the road, we'll just stick in Pacejka
and people will think we're a great sim.  That's the mentality.  GPL is
a very good game, and it does a very good job at 'simulating' '67 GP
cars, but the tyre model sucks a big one.

Most games sit in one place on the sliding scale, but GT4 occupies a
range, and the further you progress, when you start getting past the
beginner races and driving aids and arcadey stuff into the more
*** things, it really does start pushing GTR territory.  It's just
a shame that by simple prejudice, quite a lot of people on this forum,
the people who would appreciate this part of the game the most, blind
themselves to it.  I'm not campaigning that GT4 is better than RBR
(which actually is the best sim available), but it's a lot more
realistic than most people think when they try out their kiddies
consoles for 10 minutes.

I try to avoid armco and other vehicles on the track, but that's just
me.

At some point, every simulation fails to adequately simulate an
activity.  Whether it's the lack of a***pit or the viscosity
breakdown of motor oil.  Simply becuase your excpectations of a sim are
higher than others, doesn't make the game any more or less of a sim.
GT4 simulates driving (even I won't argue that it simulates racing).
The GT series is the best thing that's ever happened to the sim
community.  Better than any other sim ever released, bar none, not even
close, no argument, case closed.  Polyphony has shown that realistic
games can be sold to a large audience AND can make money.  There's no
understating how important these two little side effects are.  This
series will grow the target audience (sim enthusiasts) like nothing
else.  The GT series will continue on it's path towards realism,
raising expectations of what can be done in simulations.  The larger
the sim community, the better it is for all of us.

There is a very active community surrounding the GT series.  Are their
mods and new tracks?  Of course not.  That's part of the benefit of
consoles.  Everyone is on a level playing field.  It's plug and play.
Honestly, the GPL community numbers in the hundreds.  The number of
people playing, discussing, and engrossing themselves in the GT series
makes the sim (gpl and others) community look like a pimple on a ants
butt.

Everyone needs to *** before engaging in sex with a partner.
It's the natural progression of things. Same thing with GT4.  You can't
expect kids to jump from Mario Kart to Racing Legends (...speaking of
masturbating).