rec.autos.simulators

I can't believe you and your cronies are using this incident as a
freaking POLITICAL thing!  You don't know ANYTHING, man.  Not you, not
any of the CART/IRL imbeciles who think it's cool to rationalize a
man's death as a product of a feud.

For your information, what happened to Brayton could (and will) happen
to other drivers, EVEN in the blasted CART series, EVEN with 40 pounds
of boost instead of 55, EVEN in the mega-safe 1996 CART chassis, EVEN
in a freaking GO-KART.

Why don't you think about Brayton's two-year old daughter and his
widow instead of trying to point a finger?

On Mon, 20 May 1996 15:18:05 -0700, Gregory James Carpenter

--

IWCCCARS Project Coordinator
Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor
Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

        Hey, I don't blame Tony George for Scotts death at all.  It could have
happened regardless of the status of CART and IRL.

        I just plain don't like the IRL series.  And I don't believe TGs
reasoning about trying to go with an American racing series to get
American drivers into Indycars.  That logic doesn't hold up. First
off, a good portion of the IRL drivers is already foriegn.  But that's
not the real pisser.  Sure, this year he got a fair amount of new
drivers into Indycars, but what about next year, or the next.  When
all these new rookie drivers are veterans, then it'll be just as hard
to get into the IRL as it is CART/PPG.  And finally, I've seen some of
the IRL races.  Start 30 or so cars, finish half that many if you're
lucky, and only a couple of cars on the lead lap.  That's not racing.
That's rookies destroying cars with a few surviving to the end.

        I really think that the IRL is Tony George's play to increase his
power and bankroll.  He couldn't get a hold on CART so he crippled
Indy for them and started his own racing series.

IRL................Screw it.  I'll watch REAL indycar drivers doing
REAL racing at Michigan.

.............................................................<budda>

I'd rather let this thread die, but I gotta say this.  Whether or not Tony
George had any affect on Scott Brayton's death isn't the point.  The point
is that there is NO WAY those cars should be pulling laps above 237 miles
an hour.  It's just not safe. Brayton blew a tire, and he was an
experienced driver, but there are going to be 17 rookies in the field on
Sunday, how easily is it for them to lose concentration for a split second
at 240 miles an hour as he's going into turn three?  The Indianapolis 500
is one of the most taxing races there is.  You've seen what happened in
the first IRL races of the season, It's not about the best driver, it's
all a ***shoot.  If you're lucky enough to survive the whole race, you
can win.  But with the speed's at Indy this year, survive is gonna take on
a whole new meaning.  That's all I'm gonna say on the subject, I hope
everyone else can get back on topic too

   The IRL is perceived as one step above indy lights and one step below
CART.  Their only chance to be perceived as equals was to make this
Indianapolis 500 more succesfull than all of the others so they could
maintain that their drivers were just as good and just as popular as those
in CART.  One way this was done was by allowing the faster speeds at Indy.  
CART has limmited speeds that they deemed dangerous in the past.  The IRL
gave no indication that this was a concern.

If you read very carefully in all of the posts in this thread... not a
single bad word is said concerning Scott Brayton.  Part of the irritation
is because someone got killed and that may have been averted.  I think
that Scott would have had trouble even if he had not been at the higher
speeds because of the circumstances.  None of it was his fault, and
everyone is sorry to see another life lost in motorsports.  It does,
though stop and make you wonder if the IRL is taking these things into
consideration while they try to establish themselves.  What is more
important to the IRL, the drivers or making it through these first couple
of years?

This begs the question "What is the magic safe speed?" If 237mph is to
fast how about limiting to 200mph. hmm wait, if 200mph is safer then
150mph is even better, or how about limiting them to 100mph? Of course,
people die in highway accidents at 65mph so perhaps we should limit
Indycars to 50 mph, that would be very safe. So, who decides what safe
speeds are for these cars? The fact is that racing (at any speed) is
dangerous. I would venture to say that the drivers know this and accept
the risks for something they love to do. Scott Brayton knew the risks.
He didn't have to run Indy this year, he could have stayed in CART and
run at Michigan. He made the decision to run at Indy, no one held a gun
to his head. Having grown up in Indiana, the Indy500 holds a special
place in my heart. I hate to see any driver hurt there or anywhere.
However, the fact remains, as long as people get behind the wheel of a
vehicle and drive it at it's top speed in a field of other people doing
the same thing, people WILL get hurt and, yes, occasionally killed. It's
sad, but it is part of the sport.

My heartfelt condolences go out to Mrs. Brayton and her daughter for
their tragic loss.

Chris Drake

Again boost, tires, or paving doesn't make a difference.  It was a freak
accident and we should accept it as such.  Scott Brayton certainly isn't
the first nor the last person that is going to die at Indy.

Gary

sent shooting through ***space:

This is the last I'm going to say about this topic, because frankly
the whole finger-pointing thing is making me sick.

I don't know anything about extra boost allowed by IRL.  It is my
understanding that CART limited speeds at Michigan by reducing boost 5
inches.  IRL is running boost levels from last year.  There is NO
correlation between Brayton dying and the extra boost.  Jovy Marcelo,
four years ago, died in the EXACT same style of crash (left side car
impact into the turn wall), almost in the same place, going 175mph.
That's a difference of 53mph; five pounds of boost would have lowered
the speed about 10mph, 20 tops.  And this was during practice for a
CART field.

The problem isn't the speed.  It's the WALL.  It's sheer concrete, no
buffering material such as water or styrofoam to protect drivers when
an impact happens.  There is no energy absorption at all at the track.
That isn't a characteristic of the CART/IRL battle -- this is a
speedway characteristic.  The same problem, I might add, exists at
Michigan, and a five-inch boost reduction won't help matters any
(witness Ernie Irvan's near-fatal crash there in 1994 --  he was going
60mph slower than an IndyCar and had a much stronger and safer
chassis).

I never said there was.  I am irritated because people are trying to
place the blame for his death on either IRL or CART or both.  You
can't do that, because it was a RACING INCIDENT.  It's happened in
CART, IRL, NASCAR, SCCA, World of Outlaws, Formula One.. etc. etc.
etc. and it will keep happening regardless of the safety measures any
racing organization enacts.  They can reduce racing deaths, but not
eliminate them.

IRL is trying to establish themselves, you're correct.  CART is trying
to do the same thing with the US 500.  You're living in a fantasy land
if you think CART, IRL, or any other racing organization does not have
their own prestige and recognition set above any other priority.

As I said before, Brayton would still have died in a CART-sanctioned
event (which, I MUST inform you, the Indy 500 has never been -- USAC
is the official sanctioning body at the 500) in a 1996 Reynard, Lola,
or Penske chassis, with 20, 30, or 40 inches of boost.  This is NOT a
situation that stems from a sanctioning body.  This is a racing
accident that has happened 40 times over the history of the
Indianapolis 500, that happens in every racing venue in the world,
from speeds ranging from 30mph to 230mph.

I'm sad that Brayton died.  I'm even more sad that his death is now
becoming a martyrdom for CART.
--

IWCCCARS Project Coordinator
Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor
Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

Jeff

Matt

First let me state I do not care for Tony George, his politics, his ego, his mannerisms etc... AND I believe the IRL is a front for the deeper
issues between Tony and CART (read: powerplay) but....

We need to get some perspective here folks.

Any driver in the seat Scott Brayton was in Friday would have died in ANY CAR.
That means Unser Jr., Andretti, Foyt, Mears, Senna, Blundell, Schumacher, Mansel, Elliot, Gordon, Earnhardt, Wallace ANYONE

Hitting the wall at 235 is 99.9% fatal, that's racing no matter what league, what car or who you are.

So, the point I'm making is that speed kills, That's the thrill and the danger of it all.

This feud and this forum shouldn't be about who's wrong and why, it needs to be a discussion on how things can be improved.

I really hope that Brayton's death brings both sides to a realization that:
        Racing should be as safe and as competitive as possible
        The fans need to be the number one concern behind safety
        There are too many good people in the sport on both sides to let down by petty bickering

I believe Scott Brayton would have been awesome on race day, at Michigan or Indianapolis.  Let's mourn the fact that we'll never again be
privileged to his charm, antics, love of racing, and desire to compete.

Both sides need to be reminded that those qualities are needed desparately.  Both sides lack it in dramatic fashion.

Chad Peddycord

|> <SNIP>
|>
|> >I guess in a couple of weeks the shock will pass sufficiently for the
|> >real name-calling, finger-pointing, and mudslinging to start (or
|> >return, in some cases).  But for me, it will never be a question of
|> >blame.  I can only ask, "Why?"
|> >--

|> >IWCCCARS Project Coordinator
|> >Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor
|> >Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS
|>
|>
|> Tony,
|>
|> Very well put.
|>
|> Mike

Why?  Tony George.   Very well put.        

L8r  J.L.

Mike

Boost, tires and paving have all led to increased speeds and it's a
fact that as cars go faster, accidents become both more likely and
more serious when they do occur.  TG has acknowledged this and will be
reducing power and speed for next year's race.  The problem is that at
the speeds cars are currently going, once you lose it just a LITTLE
bit, you're just along for the ride.

One more point that no one seems to have addressed:  TG is making a
big deal out of the '97-spec cars being cheaper; it makes me wonder if
the cost savings will come at the expense of reductions in safety.

Michigan was just repaved last year.  That's why CART lowered the boost on that
track to 40":  the speeds at 45" were too fast.

The repaving at IMS was done to alleviate the problem with "weepers", which
slowed down the track-drying process after rainfall.

--
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|     G. Warren Abao     |    Official BBL Jaguars Website:     |

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Whilst wre are all upset at the loss of a driver. It seems to me that it
isn't necessarily the speed that kills. What we need are improved safety  
equipment in the cars, to mke it almost impossible for the driver to be
hit. F1 iintroduced higher sides to the***pits this year for that very
reason.

Chris Fisher