rec.autos.simulators

Here are My 25 Essential Roadies for N2003...and My Reasons Why:

1. Bathurst - Well, we can't very well have a V8 Supercar conversion and NOT
have Mt. Pano now, can we?

2. Brands Hatch (or Brands Indy) - Yanks have run 'n' won here before
(Gurney in the Eagle).  I think the full course would be a gas in Cup cars,
but I'd settle for the short course.

3. Bridgehampton - Historical accuracy demands it.  The fast, sweeping turns
are ideally suited to Cup cars (altho they were called Grand Nationals when
they ran there in the 60s).

4. Elkhart Lake - Stockers have run here before...and they looked great.
The wide-open nature of the circuit ideally suits both Cup cars and Trans-Am
machinery.

5. Hockenhein - not the new, dinky Hockenheim; the big ol' version from the
80s and 90s, complete with those long, long straights and those infernal
chicanes.

6. Imola - it was a fabulous venue until they chopped it to pieces after
Senna's accident.  There are some great runs down into slow corners to weed
out the tire flat-spotters.

7. Laguna 67 - the old 1.9-mile course (before they put in the slow stuff
for motorcycles).  It was hellishly fast...and counterclockwise, just like
the ovals.  Come to think, it *is* a pretzelated oval....

8. Lime Rock (or LMC) - A 2-gear track in real life, so 4-speed Cup cars
wouldn't be at a disadvantage on the short version.  Six on the floor?  Run
the full Mountain Circuit.

9. Mid-Ohio - Not a great track, but familiar enuf to American road-racing
fans that it should be included.

10. Monza - That is, Milano: the full roadie-cum-oval as seen in "Grand
Prix."  Otherwise, we'd never get to experience driving on *parabolic*
banking.  (Alternates: Avus...or even Meadowdale.)

11. Mosport - Dave Noonan's already done it, but his version seems to be
based on Papy's, which isn't at all accurate.

12. Nurburg - Noonan's already done this one, too.  The ne plus ultra of
natural-terrain road circuits.  Oddly more of a handful in T/A than a Cup
car.

13. Oesterreichring - Another Noonan conversion, and plenty good enuf for
me.

14. Reims - A sop to the geographically-challenged.  Okay, it's just a
triangle with hairpins, but think of the drafting battles!  The braking
duels!

15. Riverside - The most famous NASCAR roadie of all!  Noonan's conversion
is acceptable, but could use some graphic spliffs.

16. Road Atlanta - Another Noonan track...for GPL, at least.  Like Mosport,
it doesn't quite capture the Gravity Cavity effect, but I'd love to see RW
"saloons" return to this fine venue.

17. Sears 98 - There are so many versions of The Point that it makes my head
ache, but I liked the original stock-car course, before the shortcut reduced
it from a 12-turn, 2.52-mile circuit to 1.83 miles and 9 turns.

18. Silverstone - Again, Dave Noonan's conversion seems spot on.  The later
variations of this classic airfield perimeter-road circuit are too
serpentine to be thrashing stock cars around.

19. Solitude - Long and willowy, this German circuit would be perfect for
stock cars...and even better for Trabs-Am iron.  The only acceptable
substitute?  Jim Pearson's magnificent Isle of Man.  Maybe.

20. Spa - I know: Noonan's already done a very nice conversion, but I'd
prefer the modern (recently abandoned by Bernie et Cie) short version.

21. St. Jovite - The existing example of this challenging track is more than
good enuf for me.

22. Suzuka - Having just watched the 2003 F1 finale at this wonderful John
Hugenholtz-designed track, I realize N2003-based machinery would look pretty
puny by comparison, but I think it's already one of the best tracks in the
world (still!), and one of the best in GPL, so why not N2003?

23. V.I.R. - Again, for historical reasons...and because it's not unlike an
American Spa (or at least a Red, White & Blue Reims).

24. Watkins Glen 67 - Like Sears, there are a lot of iterations.
Personally, I prefer the GPL layout, but I'd be happy for one with the
Boot...or anything without the Bus Stop Chicane.

25. Zandy - Once more, Dave Noonan to the rescue.  His N2003 conversion is
aces, and drives a lot like what I imagine a Bridgehampton conversion would
feel like.

Discuss among yerselves.

--Steve Smith

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:18:36 GMT, "Steve Smith"

Good list Steve.  I'm going to be less demanding and whittle it down
to my personal 15.  Some of these were released already, but I'd like
to see them polished up in terms of accuracy and presentation.  I'm
going to stick to modern tracks in their modern configurations, since
that's primarily what I want to drive with these cars:

Adelaide
Bathurst
Brand's Hatch
Donington
Elkhart Lake
Isle of Man
Laguna Seca
Lime Rock
Mosport
Nurburgring Nordschleife
Road Atlanta
Suzuka
Vancouver
Watkins Glen
Zandvoort

I'd also like any tracks that would be necessary for a v8 mod and 1985
cup mod.

Jason

Agreed, but I have to step up and defend what essentially counts as my
"home track".  :-)

Mid-Ohio is perhaps not a "great track" for large, wallowing sedans --
or even for high-tech 200 MPH prototypes.  It is, however, fantastic
for small sports cars, where its combination of hard-to-nail compound
turns, abrupt elevation changes and short fast straights demands the
ultimate in care with setups and a light touch on the wheel.

I did a conversion for F1-2002 (SCGT + hours of tweaking to make the
track profile accurate) and submit that Mid-Ohio can really separate
the dilettantes from the serious road racers.  :-)

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:18:36 GMT, "Steve Smith"

Wish granted (sorry about the long link):

http://www.hcmotorsports.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=19760511&f=18070936&m=65...

It's still a beta, and needs a sand trap at the last chicane to
prevent course-cutting, but, there ya go.  I still would like to
see it w/o the chicanes...

As for my list, it's simple: long rally-stage like tracks like
Isle of Man and Sachsenring, going through woods,
farms, along cliffs, through towns, etc.  I wonder at what
point in terms of track length NR2003 grinds to halt and
stops working.  We know the Ring works, at 14.13
miles...

       John DiFool

Greg Dunn

   I'll agree with Greg...having put lots of laps on his creation...the
'flow' of Mid Ohio is great...not that flat anemic ICR2 conversion...MO
dips and swirls and turns you around.  Two blind corners, two big carosel
type turns..the Madness section, Thunder Valley...it's a grand track.  I'll
be waiting for a good accurate Trans Am translation.

dave henrie

Hi Jason,

Street courses are an abomination, IMO. We may have to suffer them in real
life, but I'd pay good money to avoid them on my 'puta.  That said, I like
Noonan's Surfers and Monaco (which I can't even negotiate--much less
race--in GPL).  You say you like modern configs, but while Monaco may be
retro, it's nowhere near as nostalgia-flavored as the Nordschleife.  For
that matter, Brands, Donnington (which dates to the 1920s), IoM, Lime Rock,
Mosport, Suzuka, the Glen and Zandy all date back to the GPL era.  Modern
tracks (like Maylasia) are way too sanitary, safe, and geometric for my
taste.  I'd love to drive the pothole-riddled Mulholland Drive in a Cup car
or Trans-Am, for that matter....

--Steve

And I like Noonan's Detroit, which I also found undriveable in ICR2.  It's
not a bed of roses in N2003, but on a clear track I can avoid the
walls...most of the time.

The real prob is track width.  The street circuits are just too confined for
online or offline racing.  IMO.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:27:58 GMT, "Steve Smith"

That reminds me, I forgot about Long Beach.

Jason

Hi,

Great list, but i want to add an must-have track:

-Norisring - Nuernberg, Germany: Great little track with lots of door to
door banging. I'm pretty sure this would be a blast to drive with the cup
and TransAm cars.

- hmm, maybe the chicaneless 1974 Salzburgring would also be a great track
for touring car racing.

Greetings,

Michael
--
Staabis Mountain Bike Classics www.mtb-classic.de
Mitglied im CAR EV. Verein fr PC Rennsimulationen www.car-ev.de

Thanks for the link, John.  (And please forward my thanks to Adriano!)

http://www.hcmotorsports.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=19760511&f=18070936&m=65...

Same here.

While I'm admittedly biased for growing up wandering around M-O, and having
many laps around it, Papy's version flat-out sucks.  The elevation changes
are consistently off, and some of the turn radii are suspect too.  Then's
there's glaring errors like putting the starter's stand on the wrong side.
;-)

Anywho...

With some tweaking, I think it would make a great online track, and the
Cup/PTA cars should have a few more passing opportunities than seen in
recent CART events.

The real life M-O has a good flow to it, and is a good mix of technical bits
and fast bits.

-jde

Ah, yes, the "historic" Norisring (more famous--or infamous--for the
torchlight rallies of the 1930s).  As I remember, Pedro Rodriguez bought the
farm there in a Can-Am race in '71.  Lou Magyar did a version of it for GPL.
It seemed a little...puny...for Detroit Iron.  Andre Streu has done some
outstanding E. German courses that might be good for Cup cars: the
high-speed Grenzland oval at Wegburg, the lucious Leipzig, the Dessau
autobahnstrecke (a kinda Avus w/o the banking), and the insanely dangerous
Halle-Schleife street circuit.

Hey Steve.

Did you say Surfers Paradise for GPL????

To quote one of the all time great marketing campains...."Where do ya
get it?"

Its not available on Magnus's database (its sort of "greyed out")

Can you point me in the right direction, I love this track

cheers'
Glenn

Sorry, didn't mean to imply the wrong thing.  There *was* a beta (more like
an alpha, actually) of Surfers for GPL, derived from Papy's version for
ICR2, but it was never released and has long since disappeared...altho
shards of it *may* be on display at the Museum of Lost Packets.  Dave Noonan
included a far more complete--but still not what I would call
finished--version in his N2003 conversions, and it's as good as you remember
it.

Philistine.