rec.autos.simulators

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

Randy Rig

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

by Randy Rig » Thu, 16 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Ok, first off, I'm no doctor so I'm certainly not an expert on this
subject.However, I have had some experience with research dealing with
balance.

Your sense of balance is determined by two systems, your eyes and your
inner ear (vestibular). Of course, since you have two ears there are
two sets of vestibular sensors. When you are dizzy from spinning, or
seasick it is an example of these two systems telling your brain two
different things are happening.

This system does not use magnetic fields or vibration, it sends a
current between electrodes in order to make your nervous system think
that your vestibular system is being stimulated.

From the MotionWare patent:

"The current state of virtual reality stimulates principally only the
visual scene of the user through head mounted visual display units.
However, the human body uses three different senses to resolve motion
and acceleration cues like those simulated in virtual reality.
Reliance on the visual scene, therefore, necessarily invites conflict
between the visual system and the two remaining centers for motion
sensation which remain dormant and, therefore, do not reinforce the
visual sensations."

and...

"The inner ear vestibular system is composed of two laterally
symmetric sets of end organs. Each ear contains fine spatially
specific end organs for sensing head accelerations. In each ear three
semicircular canals sense angular accelerations in three approximately
orthogonal axes. The utricular otoliths sense the sum of gravity and
linear head accelerations in a plane inclined approximately 30 degrees
from horizontal. Function of the saccule is less understood but is
believed to include gravity and linear acceleration along an
approximately vertical axis. Thus, individual vestibular end organs
are involved in maintaining different components of posture and
equilibrium. The horizontal canals are used primarily to control
horizontal plane eye and head movements, while the vertical canals and
otoliths help maintain front-to-back and side-to-side balance of the
head and trunk. The spatial and functional specificity within the
vestibular system provides an opportunity for selectively determining
the extent of pathology of individual end organs by observing both
head, eye, and body responses to vestibular stimulation. Galvanic
vestibular stimulation involves the exciting of the end organs of one
ear electrically by passing small currents between two or more surface
electrodes affixed to the mastoid bone of the ear or other locations
on the head. Various attempts have been made to use galvanic
vestibular stimuli as a clinical diagnostic tool. Vestibular end
organs can be selectively stimulated by passing small electrical
currents between electrodes placed in different configurations on the
mastoid bones. Placing one electrode on each mastoid bone stimulates
receptors in both inner ears in opposite directions, while two
electrodes placed on a single mastoid bone stimulate receptors of one
ear selectively. Electrical stimulation of the vestibular receptor
organs is a useful clinical diagnostic method, because it can be used
to quantify receptor function of one ear at a time and because the
time course and frequency of stimulation can be precisely controlled."

I think we don't get sick playing GPL because we have lots of other
visual cues that agree with our vestibular system, all of our
surroundings, excluding the image on the screen, are still. Seems to
me that in order for this device to work you would have to get a way
so that the only visual image you could get is the virtual racetrack,
otherwise you would have a portion of you visual stimuli that didn't
agree with your vestibular senses.

I think being totaly immersed, both visual and vestibular, would have
a unwanted side effect. Normally, if one of the gain factors of either
system became altered you would initially get "seasick" from it but
eventually your system would compensate for the imbalance. An example
is how you feel when you put on glasses you aren't used to. You may
feel sick to begin with but you'll get used to after a while. Well, if
you're totally immersed virtually I'm sure that the calibrations of
the devices (the image and the vestibular currents) would be a little
off. So now you run a GP at the 'ring and take the gear off, boy, I'll
bet your balance is going to be pretty out of whack for a while. Hell,
a ride on an elevator can alter my system enough so that I can feel it
after I get off. It's very subtle but stil there.

From the FAQ:

"Virtual Reality enthusiasts should keep in mind that ALL Virtual
Environments are based on synthetic stimuli that alter perception.
They should be used with care, supervision, and the understanding that
readjustment afterwards is not necessarily immediate."

Anyway, I'll give it a go when it comes out. I'm sure some people will
hate it and others will love it.

Randy


>What do you guys think, that this thing is going to shoot a big spike
>right into your brain and latch itself to your central nervous system?
>:-) Can anyone explain what this thing really does?

>I didn't have time to read all of the patent screens, but it sure
>seems like they're reluctant to say what it does without all the
>psuedo-medical BS.

>For 100 bucks, I'm guessing it's probably a hard hat liner that
>vibrates. I'm also fairly confident that it won't download the
>contents of your brain and upload them into ***space to be examined
>by mad scientists.
>I also can't imagine a 40k file is going to provide a hell of a lot of
>motion trickery, either. I have games with .TXT files bigger than
>that.

>I can't speak for everyone, but for me to lose my sense of "real"
>situational awareness, I'm going to need something that completely
>removes intrusions from the outside world.
>Think of the feeling you get when standing still on top of a tall
>building and staring up at moving clouds. Do you know that weird
>feeling of semi-motion you get for a second until you get your
>bearings?
>I'd be amazed if this thing could even accomplish that feeling.

>Tim

>On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:37:44 GMT, "Mike Barlow"

>>    Just think if someone wrote an add-on application for that device and
>>told everyone to download it.  Just think if that add-on application was
>>really a virus!    The concept of being able to "feel" the car in GPL does
>>make this thing interesting, but the potential for bad reactions are too
>>great.  It's way too early to introduce such a device right now.  I think if
>>such a device were to be introduced, it would have to follow other less
>>intrusive devices such as stonger FFB wheels, chairs, suround sound, VR
>>glasses.  and to be introduced only after these things have become as common
>>as joysticks.

Andre Warring

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

by Andre Warring » Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:00:00

So if your brain thinks you really are heading towards a wall with
300mph, you actually could get in a shock, or get a heart-attack?
Remember the Matrix? This is creepy stuff.. can't wait to test it :)

Andre



Michael E. Carve

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

by Michael E. Carve » Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:00:00

And people get motion sickness because of inner-ear balance not in synch
with the rest of the world.  So how many folks will need a virtual barf
bag with?

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Alan Orto

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

by Alan Orto » Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:00:00

I agree and that's one thing I was concerned about is motion or in this
case synthetic motion sickness. It could make you feel pretty weird if
you can feel yourself accelerating and decelerating while you see the
room around you not moving. Kind of like when you are drunk you feel
like everything is spinning but it's not moving the same way as your
visual references, and it ends up making you puke. Or even car sickness,
people can feel themselves moving but the interior of the car isn't,
more people are prone to motion sickness then others though. Also I was
curious about the after effects and how long they could last and will it
desensitize your balance after prolonged use. Will your balance recover
as quick as say when you spin for about 10 seconds then stop, will it
take a couple minutes? A couple minutes could be scary if you have to
quickly go down or up stairs because the phone is ringing, door bell or
many other reasons. If it does work as they say it could then I will buy
it even if your still a little dizzy after a couple minutes, I think it
would be worth while. Experiencing the insane braking force of a f1 car
or the acceleration of a top fuel dragster would be awesome.
I wonder if they could use this technology to counter act the "feeling"
of g-forces that pilots experience in real life during high g maneuvers.
They could think more clearly with out the g's and you could also
simulate the feeling of weightlessness which would be cool to try out.
Do a simulated space walk in your house,hehe.

> Ok, first off, I'm no doctor so I'm certainly not an expert on this
> subject.However, I have had some experience with research dealing with
> balance.

> Your sense of balance is determined by two systems, your eyes and your
> inner ear (vestibular). Of course, since you have two ears there are
> two sets of vestibular sensors. When you are dizzy from spinning, or
> seasick it is an example of these two systems telling your brain two
> different things are happening.

> This system does not use magnetic fields or vibration, it sends a
> current between electrodes in order to make your nervous system think
> that your vestibular system is being stimulated.

> From the MotionWare patent:

> "The current state of virtual reality stimulates principally only the
> visual scene of the user through head mounted visual display units.
> However, the human body uses three different senses to resolve motion
> and acceleration cues like those simulated in virtual reality.
> Reliance on the visual scene, therefore, necessarily invites conflict
> between the visual system and the two remaining centers for motion
> sensation which remain dormant and, therefore, do not reinforce the
> visual sensations."

> and...

> "The inner ear vestibular system is composed of two laterally
> symmetric sets of end organs. Each ear contains fine spatially
> specific end organs for sensing head accelerations. In each ear three
> semicircular canals sense angular accelerations in three approximately
> orthogonal axes. The utricular otoliths sense the sum of gravity and
> linear head accelerations in a plane inclined approximately 30 degrees
> from horizontal. Function of the saccule is less understood but is
> believed to include gravity and linear acceleration along an
> approximately vertical axis. Thus, individual vestibular end organs
> are involved in maintaining different components of posture and
> equilibrium. The horizontal canals are used primarily to control
> horizontal plane eye and head movements, while the vertical canals and
> otoliths help maintain front-to-back and side-to-side balance of the
> head and trunk. The spatial and functional specificity within the
> vestibular system provides an opportunity for selectively determining
> the extent of pathology of individual end organs by observing both
> head, eye, and body responses to vestibular stimulation. Galvanic
> vestibular stimulation involves the exciting of the end organs of one
> ear electrically by passing small currents between two or more surface
> electrodes affixed to the mastoid bone of the ear or other locations
> on the head. Various attempts have been made to use galvanic
> vestibular stimuli as a clinical diagnostic tool. Vestibular end
> organs can be selectively stimulated by passing small electrical
> currents between electrodes placed in different configurations on the
> mastoid bones. Placing one electrode on each mastoid bone stimulates
> receptors in both inner ears in opposite directions, while two
> electrodes placed on a single mastoid bone stimulate receptors of one
> ear selectively. Electrical stimulation of the vestibular receptor
> organs is a useful clinical diagnostic method, because it can be used
> to quantify receptor function of one ear at a time and because the
> time course and frequency of stimulation can be precisely controlled."

> I think we don't get sick playing GPL because we have lots of other
> visual cues that agree with our vestibular system, all of our
> surroundings, excluding the image on the screen, are still. Seems to
> me that in order for this device to work you would have to get a way
> so that the only visual image you could get is the virtual racetrack,
> otherwise you would have a portion of you visual stimuli that didn't
> agree with your vestibular senses.

> I think being totaly immersed, both visual and vestibular, would have
> a unwanted side effect. Normally, if one of the gain factors of either
> system became altered you would initially get "seasick" from it but
> eventually your system would compensate for the imbalance. An example
> is how you feel when you put on glasses you aren't used to. You may
> feel sick to begin with but you'll get used to after a while. Well, if
> you're totally immersed virtually I'm sure that the calibrations of
> the devices (the image and the vestibular currents) would be a little
> off. So now you run a GP at the 'ring and take the gear off, boy, I'll
> bet your balance is going to be pretty out of whack for a while. Hell,
> a ride on an elevator can alter my system enough so that I can feel it
> after I get off. It's very subtle but stil there.

> From the FAQ:

> "Virtual Reality enthusiasts should keep in mind that ALL Virtual
> Environments are based on synthetic stimuli that alter perception.
> They should be used with care, supervision, and the understanding that
> readjustment afterwards is not necessarily immediate."

> Anyway, I'll give it a go when it comes out. I'm sure some people will
> hate it and others will love it.

> Randy


> >What do you guys think, that this thing is going to shoot a big spike
> >right into your brain and latch itself to your central nervous system?
> >:-) Can anyone explain what this thing really does?

> >I didn't have time to read all of the patent screens, but it sure
> >seems like they're reluctant to say what it does without all the
> >psuedo-medical BS.

> >For 100 bucks, I'm guessing it's probably a hard hat liner that
> >vibrates. I'm also fairly confident that it won't download the
> >contents of your brain and upload them into ***space to be examined
> >by mad scientists.
> >I also can't imagine a 40k file is going to provide a hell of a lot of
> >motion trickery, either. I have games with .TXT files bigger than
> >that.

> >I can't speak for everyone, but for me to lose my sense of "real"
> >situational awareness, I'm going to need something that completely
> >removes intrusions from the outside world.
> >Think of the feeling you get when standing still on top of a tall
> >building and staring up at moving clouds. Do you know that weird
> >feeling of semi-motion you get for a second until you get your
> >bearings?
> >I'd be amazed if this thing could even accomplish that feeling.

> >Tim

> >On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:37:44 GMT, "Mike Barlow"

> >>    Just think if someone wrote an add-on application for that device and
> >>told everyone to download it.  Just think if that add-on application was
> >>really a virus!    The concept of being able to "feel" the car in GPL does
> >>make this thing interesting, but the potential for bad reactions are too
> >>great.  It's way too early to introduce such a device right now.  I think if
> >>such a device were to be introduced, it would have to follow other less
> >>intrusive devices such as stonger FFB wheels, chairs, suround sound, VR
> >>glasses.  and to be introduced only after these things have become as common
> >>as joysticks.

Alan Orto

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

by Alan Orto » Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:00:00

I could some REALLY angry people online if they get punted into a wall.
;0

> So if your brain thinks you really are heading towards a wall with
> 300mph, you actually could get in a shock, or get a heart-attack?
> Remember the Matrix? This is creepy stuff.. can't wait to test it :)

> Andre

Bill Met

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

by Bill Met » Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Wow.  That is pretty darn creepy.  Sort of reminds me of that early 80's
sci-fi movie "Brainstorm."



>I wouldn't use it for a 1 million dollars, far too creepy for me.



>> http://www.vm3.com/MotionWare/option01.html

--
                    | "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette          |  gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago   |  it become a brief chapter in our

Ryan Mitchle

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

by Ryan Mitchle » Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:00:00

I would try just as long as I were dead certain that there were no "driver
problems", unexpected bugs, crashes, etc . . . I mean, it's one thing when
your video card ends up with strange textures or odd 3D problems, but quite
another thing when your vestibular tells you that you've just been thrown
under a truck!

Ryan

Ryan Mitchle

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

by Ryan Mitchle » Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Come to think of it, the device should probably feature *hardware*
implementations of:
    - easily reachable emergency cut-out switch (that ramps smoothly to
zero)
    - programmable slew-rate limiter
    - possibly a heart rate and *** pressure monitoring system that
engages the emergency cut-out if the values go out of range

Yet another good reason to be running a non-MS OS (BeOS springs to mind) . .
.

Ryan

Andre Warring

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

by Andre Warring » Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:00:00

LOL Just think about playing Mortal Kombat online...
again like in the Matrix :)

Andre


>I could some REALLY angry people online if they get punted into a wall.
>;0


>> So if your brain thinks you really are heading towards a wall with
>> 300mph, you actually could get in a shock, or get a heart-attack?
>> Remember the Matrix? This is creepy stuff.. can't wait to test it :)

>> Andre

Benjam

The Ultimate in Sim Realism? Check This Out ...

by Benjam » Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:00:00

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:56:09 -0500, "daxe"


>> > http://www.vm3.com/MotionWare/option01.html

>Here's the phrase that worries me most:

>"MotionwareR overrides the body's balance inputs. "

that's what makes me leary about it too, I don't trust the idea and
wonder about the after effects of frequent, repeated 2-3 hour use....
there was another line about virtual reality products -

"They should be used with care, supervision, and the understanding
that readjustment afterwards is not necessarily immediate."
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  I remember how
Wolfenstein made me feel the first time I played it (never seen
anything like it before, took some getting used to..) I can just
imagine trying to shake that thing off after a 500 mile race or a
lengthy quake deathmatch - ooo, low gravity level, rocket jumps,

~butreal ly off,icer i havennnnt been drink, drinkeen - i i i was
cuuuuuTIN laps around MoreSport....


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