rec.autos.simulators

by **chog..** » Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Lets face it people,racing a car on its edge has to do with feeling
the grip of the tires and the g-forces acting on the chassis and then
artfully controlling inputs to extract the most from the car.

In a racing sim,the only way we have of feeling the grip of the tires
is by the tire squeal that you hear as you near their edge of
traction.When FFB matures we will have an excellent way to feel the
grip at the front wheels and will also help out slightly in feeling
the g-forces acting on the chassis.

But we get no g-force indicaters that can help us to "feel" the
chassis.This is really needed as racing sims become more realistic.
A simualtion like GPL which models a race car to the extreme,becomes
EXTREMELY hard to drive since we cant feel the g-forces acting upon
it.What if we or Papyrus actually,could give us tire contact patch
indicaters in the four corners of the monitor.The contact patches
could sit in the unused areas that GPL doesnt use.They can be one inch
wide at all four corners when the car is balanced over the four
tires.Accellerate and the front contact patch's shrink while the rears
grow.Brake and the front patches grow while the rear patches
shrink.Taking a slow corner and the outside patches grow slightly
while the inside tires shrink slightly.Take a fast corner and the
outside patches will grow very large and the inside patches will
shrink considerably.This could give a great sense or "feel" of
cornering at differing cornering forces.Diving into a turn and quickly
jerking the wheel will set the weight onto the outside tires very
quickly while turning the wheel slowly will lenghten the time it takes
for the chassis to set.In GPL you cant see this or feel it happening
but by actually seeing the contact patches growing and shrinking youll
be able to subconciouslly feel it happening by what your seeing in
your peripheral vision.
When accelarating hard out of a turn,not many people know that most of
the weight feels like it sits on the outside rear tire and visually
seeing this in ones peripheral vision could add to this "feel' that is
lacking.By seeing the outside rear tire huge in relation to the other
three tires could convey this feeling.Braking into a turn feels like
your pivoting on the front outside tire so seeing this tire larger
then the others can convey this feel and give an indication of what
the g-forces are doing to the chassis.It would help out with balancing
the chassis too as you can tell when your weight is sitting evenly
front to back.

If this works the way I think it could it should defenitly be
included into the newer Papy sims to come.It should be tested first in
GPL though,dont you think????:)))
Skeeter

by **Johan Foedere** » Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:00:00

> Lets face it people,racing a car on its edge has to do with feeling
> the grip of the tires and the g-forces acting on the chassis and then
> artfully controlling inputs to extract the most from the car.

True.

False.

There is more than that. If we take GPL for example, we see that the
G-forces on the drivers head are also modelled. While taking a corner,
your point of view changes slightly. Why do think papy is using a 3d
modelled***pit? Because this allowes them to let the head/camera move
around a bit inside the***pit, giving that bit of extra feel.

I wouldn't like to see those contact patches as you call them. I believe
that would make the sim less realistic. As it is now you still have to
"feel" what the car is doing. Even though it is harder than in real life
and not really feeling. Those contact patches would turn us sim-drivers
into computers. Read the data and act accordingly. That would take a lot
of the fun out of racing.

// Johan

by **Drake Christens** » Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:00:00

I think this would be a good idea. My suggestion, though, is to make it
a single lateral G-force indicator. I think that more closely models the
information that a driver gets from "feel."

Alternatively, if using four separate indicators, I'd prefer them grouped
together. That would be a lot of screen space to cover for what I
consider a single piece of information.

Mighty

by **Wosc** » Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:00:00

This is an interesting discussion. I feel that with a G force indicator you
would have to be checking them going through the corners and would really
take the "driving" out of the game. All turns cant be taken at the same G's
though because of speed and tire grip and all those factors put into one.
It would help for setting up a car but thats about it, not driving it. If
you could go back in your replay and get a DIGITAL readout of your G's in a
corner, then you can know if your setup change made you faster or slower in
the turn, without having to do a perfect lap to know if it helped overall.
This could also be a good piece of info if you want to compare if one person
is driving a setup better than another.

Jesse

PS sorry for continuing to ramble

>I think this would be a good idea. My suggestion, though, is to make it
>a single lateral G-force indicator. I think that more closely models the
>information that a driver gets from "feel."

>Alternatively, if using four separate indicators, I'd prefer them grouped
>together. That would be a lot of screen space to cover for what I
>consider a single piece of information.

>Mighty

by **Randy Cassid** » Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:00:00

...

We've tried the type of indicators you've suggested, and they really
don't help you 'feel' what's going on. It's pretty much impossible to
focus your attention down the road for your turn-in, apex, or track out
points, and also pay attention to these indicators (Keith Code's (I
think that's correct) "A Twist of the Wrist" does an excellent job of
getting a racer to think about what they pay attention to; how to spend
their "attention dollars"). As an analysis tool after-the-fact,
however, these types of indicators can be quite enlightening.

Randy

by **Mike Zamaroc** » Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Viper Racing has just that in their Replays

by **Jack** » Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:00:00

What I think would be *really* useful is to have four pairs of concentric
circles (i.e. friction circles) on the screen.

Each inner circle would enclose a force vector that would grow in size in
proportion to the magnitude of the force acting at each respective corner of
the car. Each enclosed vector arrow would point in the direction of the
resultant force acting at each corner of the car, so you could get a clear
indication of how the forces at each corner were being consumed: braking,
cornering, traction, or some combination of these forces.

The outer circle in each concentric pair would change in diameter also and
would be proportional to the adhesive force available at each respective
corner based on current wheel loading. When the diameter of the inner circle
grew to match the diameter of the outer circle, you'd know that you had
reached the limit of adhesion. Powerful stuff!

These vector circles could be displayed in the Replay view and would be
incredibly valuable in analyzing both your own, as well as other driver's,
setups and driving styles. Seems that I've heard rumors that some of this
data is in fact retained in the replay files.

Graphically, it would be relatively easy to implement. Heck, I might even
consider doing it myself, if Papy chose to make the data available. Randy?

by **Larr** » Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:00:00

How about a helmet that squishes the appropriate side of the head?

Hehe

-Larry

> This is an interesting discussion. I feel that with a G force indicator you
> would have to be checking them going through the corners and would really
> take the "driving" out of the game. All turns cant be taken at the same G's
> though because of speed and tire grip and all those factors put into one.
> It would help for setting up a car but thats about it, not driving it. If
> you could go back in your replay and get a DIGITAL readout of your G's in a
> corner, then you can know if your setup change made you faster or slower in
> the turn, without having to do a perfect lap to know if it helped overall.
> This could also be a good piece of info if you want to compare if one person
> is driving a setup better than another.

> Jesse

> PS sorry for continuing to ramble

> >I think this would be a good idea. My suggestion, though, is to make it
> >a single lateral G-force indicator. I think that more closely models the
> >information that a driver gets from "feel."

> >Alternatively, if using four separate indicators, I'd prefer them grouped
> >together. That would be a lot of screen space to cover for what I
> >consider a single piece of information.

> >Mighty

by **Matthew V. Jessic** » Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:00:00

> I think this would be a good idea. My suggestion, though, is to make it
> a single lateral G-force indicator. I think that more closely models the
> information that a driver gets from "feel."

One of the best lateral G force indicators
(at least to a trajectory engineer ;) is the
curvature of your trajectory. Of course you
have to factor in the effect of your speed, so
it takes experience.

If your trajectory isn't turning fast enough, you need more G.
If you are turning easily, you should be going faster! :)

- Matt

by **chog..** » Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Try this out and see if it works for you the way its worked for me.I
am one of those people who cant seem to feel the car thru the subtle
***pit movements.So I placed a piece of tape on to my monitor that is
1/8in thick and is placed straight down the center of the***pit.I
then removed the drivers arms in the options screen so I could see
this effect better.All of a sudden I could race the Glen and hug the
corners.Its a subtly thing but it seems to show the car turning in and
this little bit of info gives a "feel' to the chassis that wasnt there
before...at least for me.I think it could work even better if someone
could add a small stick to the***pit graphic so that it sticks up
out of the***pit.This way it would be more in the drivers field of
view and you could put the drivers arms back.Throw a skinny piece of
tape over this stick coming out of the***pit and you could have an
excellent indicater of turn-in and of the car setting into turns.Try
it out yourself!!!!
Skeeter

> Lets face it people,racing a car on its edge has to do with feeling
>the grip of the tires and the g-forces acting on the chassis and then
>artfully controlling inputs to extract the most from the car.

>In a racing sim,the only way we have of feeling the grip of the tires
>is by the tire squeal that you hear as you near their edge of
>traction.When FFB matures we will have an excellent way to feel the
>grip at the front wheels and will also help out slightly in feeling
>the g-forces acting on the chassis.

> But we get no g-force indicaters that can help us to "feel" the
>chassis.This is really needed as racing sims become more realistic.
> A simualtion like GPL which models a race car to the extreme,becomes
>EXTREMELY hard to drive since we cant feel the g-forces acting upon
>it.What if we or Papyrus actually,could give us tire contact patch
>indicaters in the four corners of the monitor.The contact patches
>could sit in the unused areas that GPL doesnt use.They can be one inch
>wide at all four corners when the car is balanced over the four
>tires.Accellerate and the front contact patch's shrink while the rears
>grow.Brake and the front patches grow while the rear patches
>shrink.Taking a slow corner and the outside patches grow slightly
>while the inside tires shrink slightly.Take a fast corner and the
>outside patches will grow very large and the inside patches will
>shrink considerably.This could give a great sense or "feel" of
>cornering at differing cornering forces.Diving into a turn and quickly
>jerking the wheel will set the weight onto the outside tires very
>quickly while turning the wheel slowly will lenghten the time it takes
>for the chassis to set.In GPL you cant see this or feel it happening
>but by actually seeing the contact patches growing and shrinking youll
>be able to subconciouslly feel it happening by what your seeing in
>your peripheral vision.
>When accelarating hard out of a turn,not many people know that most of
>the weight feels like it sits on the outside rear tire and visually
>seeing this in ones peripheral vision could add to this "feel' that is
>lacking.By seeing the outside rear tire huge in relation to the other
>three tires could convey this feeling.Braking into a turn feels like
>your pivoting on the front outside tire so seeing this tire larger
>then the others can convey this feel and give an indication of what
>the g-forces are doing to the chassis.It would help out with balancing
>the chassis too as you can tell when your weight is sitting evenly
>front to back.

> If this works the way I think it could it should defenitly be
>included into the newer Papy sims to come.It should be tested first in
>GPL though,dont you think????:)))
>Skeeter

by **Johan Foedere** » Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:00:00

ROTFL

But don't set the force slider to high or your head will pop! :-)

> How about a helmet that squishes the appropriate side of the head?

> Hehe

> -Larry

by **Larry Bl** » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Mommy, he's hurting me!

:)

-Larry

> Each inner circle would enclose a force vector that would grow in size in
> proportion to the magnitude of the force acting at each respective corner of
> the car. Each enclosed vector arrow would point in the direction of the
> resultant force acting at each corner of the car, so you could get a clear
> indication of how the forces at each corner were being consumed: braking,
> cornering, traction, or some combination of these forces.

> The outer circle in each concentric pair would change in diameter also and
> would be proportional to the adhesive force available at each respective
> corner based on current wheel loading. When the diameter of the inner circle
> grew to match the diameter of the outer circle, you'd know that you had
> reached the limit of adhesion. Powerful stuff!

> These vector circles could be displayed in the Replay view and would be
> incredibly valuable in analyzing both your own, as well as other driver's,
> setups and driving styles. Seems that I've heard rumors that some of this
> data is in fact retained in the replay files.

> Graphically, it would be relatively easy to implement. Heck, I might even
> consider doing it myself, if Papy chose to make the data available. Randy?

by **Larry Bl** » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Yeah, and watch out for MTM2!

:)

-Larry

> ROTFL

> But don't set the force slider to high or your head will pop! :-)

> > How about a helmet that squishes the appropriate side of the head?

> > Hehe

> > -Larry

by **Doug Millike** » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00

*Real* race car drivers would kill(!) for this display, to be used during
practice & setup (probably not too easy to use it during a race<grin>).

Kind of like the pictures on pp 338-9 in our book, "Race Car Vehicle
Dynamics". We've been using the friction circle presentation for a long
time -- earliest reference to the technique is from the late 1950's...

Some recent work we've seen (not by us) says that realtime friction
circles may actually be measurable on real tires. Isn't science
wonderful?

-- Doug

Milliken Research Associates Inc.

> What I think would be *really* useful is to have four pairs of concentric
> circles (i.e. friction circles) on the screen.

> Each inner circle would enclose a force vector that would grow in size in
> proportion to the magnitude of the force acting at each respective corner of
> the car. Each enclosed vector arrow would point in the direction of the
> resultant force acting at each corner of the car, so you could get a clear
> indication of how the forces at each corner were being consumed: braking,
> cornering, traction, or some combination of these forces.

> The outer circle in each concentric pair would change in diameter also and
> would be proportional to the adhesive force available at each respective
> corner based on current wheel loading. When the diameter of the inner circle
> grew to match the diameter of the outer circle, you'd know that you had
> reached the limit of adhesion. Powerful stuff!

> These vector circles could be displayed in the Replay view and would be
> incredibly valuable in analyzing both your own, as well as other driver's,
> setups and driving styles. Seems that I've heard rumors that some of this
> data is in fact retained in the replay files.

> Graphically, it would be relatively easy to implement. Heck, I might even
> consider doing it myself, if Papy chose to make the data available. Randy?

by **Jack** » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Thanks for your comments, Doug.

Can you imagine how fascinating and instructive something like this would
be!?! Imagine that the inner concentric circles contained not just the
resultant vector but the lateral and longitudinal vectors as well! You know
that Papy is calculating this stuff in real time. How impactful it would be
if we could see it! We're talking essentially 12 bytes of data per wheel
gathered at some affordable frequency.

Is anything like this being done in sims or in F1 now! The limited telemetry
data that I've seen seems to come in the form of plots against time. To me
being able to see the concentric circle display while viewing a replay would
be infinitely more valuable to both the chassis tuner and the driver.

I think I'll try to spark some interest in Randy Cassidy on this one.

Regards,

Jack

>*Real* race car drivers would kill(!) for this display, to be used during
>practice & setup (probably not too easy to use it during a race<grin>).

>Kind of like the pictures on pp 338-9 in our book, "Race Car Vehicle
>Dynamics". We've been using the friction circle presentation for a long
>time -- earliest reference to the technique is from the late 1950's...

>Some recent work we've seen (not by us) says that realtime friction
>circles may actually be measurable on real tires. Isn't science
>wonderful?

>-- Doug

> Milliken Research Associates Inc.

>> What I think would be *really* useful is to have four pairs of concentric
>> circles (i.e. friction circles) on the screen.

>> Each inner circle would enclose a force vector that would grow in size in
>> proportion to the magnitude of the force acting at each respective corner
of
>> the car. Each enclosed vector arrow would point in the direction of the
>> resultant force acting at each corner of the car, so you could get a
clear
>> indication of how the forces at each corner were being consumed: braking,
>> cornering, traction, or some combination of these forces.

>> The outer circle in each concentric pair would change in diameter also
and
>> would be proportional to the adhesive force available at each respective
>> corner based on current wheel loading. When the diameter of the inner
circle
>> grew to match the diameter of the outer circle, you'd know that you had
>> reached the limit of adhesion. Powerful stuff!

>> These vector circles could be displayed in the Replay view and would be
>> incredibly valuable in analyzing both your own, as well as other
driver's,
>> setups and driving styles. Seems that I've heard rumors that some of this
>> data is in fact retained in the replay files.

>> Graphically, it would be relatively easy to implement. Heck, I might even
>> consider doing it myself, if Papy chose to make the data available.
Randy?

rec.autos.simulators

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations

G-Force indicaters in racing simulations