rec.autos.simulators

While the physics are perhaps a good first attempt, I still believe the cars
have way too much grip. I couldn't possibly have been throwing the car
around in GP2 (or in real life for that matter) as I can in CART. There
should be no way that a person with one or two days experience should be
able to get the kind of lap times that are being achieved.

Also, as I said in a previous post, when you do put a wheel off on grass or
gravel, there should be a more significant decrease in speed and control.
With CART, missing a turn is no big deal as you don't loose a realistic
amount of speed or control. These are all a function of the physics model
and are the basis of my criticism.

Make sure you have "hardware acceleration" checked in the graphics setup.
Otherwise it defaults to your normal video card.

I also was a little disappointed by this game after trying it.  I personally
like Psygnosis Formula 1 much better.... the graphics are a little more
sharp in Formula 1... I would like CART much better if the steering wasn't
so bad.  Maybe its just me, but the CART cars steer the same as the Monster
Truck Madness trucks do... (meaning the steering is not very responsive and
I feel like I'm driving a truck), Indy type cars are supposed to have very
responsive steering, with the ability to dart in and out of traffic quickly,
something this game does not have.

    I must say I am disappointed quite a little bit by this.  I have
been anticipating this demo for a while.  While the car physics and
sounds may be good, the graphics leave a lot to be desired in late
1997.  First of all, the other cars look terrible to me.  There's no
comparison to the look of the cars in this and the ones in ICR2, N2,
UbiF1, and even the sorry Psygnosis F1.
    Like another post mentioned, the graphics of ICR2 Rend look much,
much better.  I fiddled with this thing at every setting I could think
of, and it just looks bland.  And even worse, I'm getting choppy
performance with a 200 Mhz MMX Overdrive\32 RAM\512K L2\Intergraph
Intense V1000 Rend\Diamond Monster.  Yes, I have all the latest drivers,
hardware accleration is enabled, etc.  The frame rate speeds up when I
turn some of the graphics down, but it is still CHOPPY.  The frame is OK
but I get a lot of the Win95 'hiccups'.   I find this hard to believe.
The Ubisoft F1 demo has much, much more detail than this and SCREAMS on
this computer.
   I want to like this sim, I really do.  I am not so convinced that the
sounds are all that much better than ICR2, and perhaps the physics of
the car are better, but the graphics engine really could have been a lot
better.  This is supposed to utilize MMX?  I get 70-89 frames per second
with POD!  Microsoft, take a look at some of these other graphics
engines:  Moto Racer, NFS2SE, POD, ICR2, N2, UBIF1.  These all play at
30+ frames per second on my computer.  I can't you what my frame rate
was; I deleted the demo before I saw the FAQ.  Perhaps I'll try it
again.  But I do know that it was disturbing compared to the
above-mentioned titles.
    One final thing.  I have no way of knowing which 3D card it was
using.  Before this, all Direct 3D games have used my 3Dfx card, but
this one looks like it might have been using the inferior Rendition
card.  Is there any way to tell, or switch, which card is used for
Direct 3D here?  I might give it a second chance if someone can shed
some light here.

complete opposite here, I can't even drive straight

Are you sure you have traction control off. Boy when I removed this help, i
lost it quite a few times. Although, I must saw that even if I goosed it
coming out of the yurns, the car would stick like glue.......With ICR2, you
had to be more gentle with the throttle. :(

Crimson
Crimson's Sim World
www.total.net/~fmoriss

Guys,

IMHO, I think you'll find that spending more time in the garage might
improve your overall assessment of the sim.

Brett

This Sim was developed with the full cooperation and testing
input of many CART drivers (Blundell, Rahal, several others ...)
- the physics model is based on their tuning input.

I am sure some of you have raced open wheel cars, but for
the rest of you we do want to stress that you should not
be measuring what is "realistic" by simply referring to
other Sims you may play.

Who is to say that other feel is the "correct" one?

Yes CART feels different - this is natural.

Does it have "unrealistic grip"?

The professional CART drivers don't think so.

Needless to say you "cannot please all the people all the time"
but at least keep an open mind.

We are reading and responding to all the postings and email -
we are committed to making the CPR series the very best based
on listening to your input and suggestions.

Keep em coming ...

--

Posted using Reference.COM                         http://www.reference.com
Browse, Search and Post         Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog.

InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting.

I'm not sure if the wheel was straight or not all the times i attempted
this...

Dean, you stated:

I don't know if you intend this statement as the end all of discussion
regarding the accuracy of the physics model. If you do, I think your missing
an opportunity and a portion of the market segment.

Frankly, I don't think you should realy solely on professional drivers as
sole arbiters of reality because they don't have much experience behind the
wheel of a sim and don't know just how much is possible. There is no
question that the aim of a true sim is to be as true to the actual event as
possible. But feedback that they give you can and I would suspect was
watered down by virtue of the fact that their experience of driving involves
so many other physical sensations and interactions with their cars that we
in the sim racing world will never experience. When you put these guys
behind the wheel of a sim you and ask them to evaluate the level of grip in
the car, you've taken away the whole feel they get from a car from the seat
of their pants. Thats how they tell how a car is about to break loose in a
curve. Behind the wheel of a sim (perhaps the only sim they'll ever spend
any appreciable time with) they are a bit like fish out of water. I'm not
saying their input should be ignored. Far from it! But don't use their lack
of finding a problem with the grip as an excuse for not accepting that there
may in fact be a problem with the grip and it is something that needs to be
fixed.

Its funny, but at every mention of a potential problem with the physics
model, your feedback I've seen has been something akin to "your now treading
on sacred ground" and theres a definate relucance to admit there may be a
problem that requires tweaking. If you and the Terminal Reality folks are
serious about wanting and using feedback from the racing sim enthusiasts,
you all should also have an open mind. Even when it relates to aspects of
the game you seem to feel are sacred cows.

If you feel I'm biased and not being open minded about my observations. OK.
I disagree and feel I'm giving your product a fair and honest evaluation.
But I'm not the only one saying this. The post I've quoted above is from
Getzen and he makes an important point regarding the same issue and he, as
you well know, was and is a beta tester for CART. There have been others as
well who have agreed with this. Its not a *** theory. Were
independent people voicing a similar concern. Please don't discount us and
our observations and say:

Addressing the physics model and the grip will be an excellent way to ensure
a longer life span for the product as more people will be able to go farther
and farther with the game if (as in real life racing) the additional time
spent practising results in greater and greater skill and reduced lap times
and perhaps in time being able to set a lap record. When a sim racer can set
a lap record after one weekend of practise, it doesn't bode well for the
long term interest in the game.

--

Neil Yeatman          
Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

1. Track is bound to not represent the actual track.
2. Cars are bound to not represent the actual cars.
3. Real drivers (no matter what they say) have some "fear". (may not be very
relevant though)
4. Depending on how simplified the physics model is, who knows?
5. A bejillion other variables . . .

A nice test for lateral g force should be a simple skidpad test since lateral
accelleration is equal to rotational rate squared times radius. ie a=w^2r where
w in radians/sec, a in ft/sec^2 and r in ft.  Or something like that anyway, I'm
not arguing the formula, I'm saying it should be trivial to simulate a skidpad
and determine if the car is following this simple physics model.  Do simulated
g-force at different size skid pads roughly correspond to actual g-forces?

Depending of the type of physics/experiment you are doing, you may be lucky to
find your experimental values withing 25% of theoretical.  Something as
complicated as a car going around a track spending lots of time in non-linear
traction and all sorts of other variables I think squabling over a couple of
seconds is really pointless.

l8er
ronny

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

That sounds a little like "evading the question" to me :)  The
comments of the CART drivers were undoubtedly instrumental in turning
this into something which feels like a CART car. Remember though that
it isn't a CART car, it's a simulation of one, and we have thousands
of hours more experience at driving sims than any CART driver.

I've yet to see any high-performance car with that amount of grip when
accelerating out of low-speed corners, and especially not any car with
800+hp. That is one aspect that the CART drive apparently passed as
"realistic", so how can the everything else be considered sacrosanct
based upon that same input?

That;s _REALLY_ good to know, and I have to say CPR is an excellent
starting point. As a multiplayer racer it's loads of fun, easy to
drive and is pretty much a must-buy IMO. To be considered as the best
simulation it still has a long way to go however, but seeing the way
FlightSim has developed I have high hopes for future releases.

Best Regards,
John (Sim Racing News)

I use Professional mode also, and I have the same problem in the DEMO
: the traction when coming out of slow/middle corners.  You can play
with settings to make it spin or not to spin, but with 800+hp, I think,
with any kind of setting, rear end should get loose, when nailing the
throttle.

Except for that 'small' problem, and very slow AI, the game is
absolutely fantastic.

--

Gregory Alferov, "Greg"                      ~~_____~~

http://home.inreach.com/tifosi/          [__]=[_(-)_]=[__]