rec.autos.simulators

GP500 realistic?

Kevin Anderso

GP500 realistic?

by Kevin Anderso » Sun, 15 Aug 1999 04:00:00

I was sliding them around in the demo

--
Kevin Anderson


ICQ # 6769389



> >As for GP500 bikes and sliding. The ability to control a slide is the
bigest
> >asset a GP500 ride can posses. This is why many top GP500 riders use offf
road
> >riding as a training tool. Some of the GP500 developers actually spent
time with
> >Kenny Roberts Jnr at his Ranch learning the finer points of sliding.

> Are you saying you can slide the bikes around in GP 500, but not in
> the demo?

> Joe McGinn
> ==========================================
> Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/***.com/
> ==========================================

Eric Smi

GP500 realistic?

by Eric Smi » Sun, 15 Aug 1999 04:00:00


>I'm talking more about all-out braking. I was under the impression
>(perhgaps mistaken?) that one should not apply 100% brakes at top
>speed.

You are mistaken.  Braking at speed is limited by tire traction, not by any
chassis dynamics.  Bikes don't 'flip over' when using all available traction
for braking.

HIH,
Eric
'84 RZ 350
'85 RZ 350
'85 Ninja 900
'89 GS 500 E
'94 Katana 750

Steve Blankenshi

GP500 realistic?

by Steve Blankenshi » Sun, 15 Aug 1999 04:00:00


> I'm talking more about all-out braking. I was under the impression
> (perhgaps mistaken?) that one should not apply 100% brakes at top
> speed.

True.  Grabbing full brakes instantly at speed WILL dump you in RL.  You
won't flip, but you'll lose the front end and.........I don't want to think
about it. :-)  I haven't tried it yet, but I wonder what GP500 will do with
separate front and rear brake inputs and slamming on just the front in a
straight line.  In RL, you munch it.  A bit more gradual application will
result in a nose wheelie once the weight transfers to the front end and the
fork compresses.  With such short wheelbases and high CG's, the weight
transfer on bikes is enormous.  The reverse of the front brake scenario is
pretty much how power-on rear traction works too.  Everything at once and
you spin the tire.  Give it time to transfer the weight and you're looking
at the pretty clouds.  Dangerous critters!

Cheers,

Steve B.

Steve Blankenshi

GP500 realistic?

by Steve Blankenshi » Sun, 15 Aug 1999 04:00:00


Yes.   My reference to little sliding on bikes was versus cars, which
anybody can do.  The way the top GP guys can do repeatable two-wheel drifts
on asphalt never ceases to amaze me.  Sliding the rear into corners is easy,
since it has basically NO weight left on it under hard braking.  But***ing
that front over and letting it go takes some serious skill, not to mention
certain oversized glandular appendages.  But what I feel is missing in the
GP500 demo is any real sense for what's happening at the tires' contact
patch when you're at the limit.  You get the goofy red brake warning light
onscreen and then the "imminent disaster" icon (my term :-)) next to it with
a bit of squealy sound, but that's about it.  When both reach full
intensity, bang; down you go.  It almost seems as if they knew there was no
"feel" in the model so they threw those in as a substitute.  I hope the
retail version offers more here.

Cheers,

Steve B.

Tony O'Bri

GP500 realistic?

by Tony O'Bri » Sun, 15 Aug 1999 04:00:00

I can answer that.  First off, I'm different buttons as my brakes.  So
using FULL front brakes at full speed doesn't cause a problem.. so
long as you back right off the power.. keeping the throttle pushed
forward doesn't help.  
Re the back brake... great fun.  At the end of the main straight, you
have to toggle it.. the rear breaks loose (as you'd expect) and starts
to drift either left or right of you... if you don't release the back
break quick enough, when you do.... highside.   End result you are
toggling the rear brake three, four times just to keep the rear in
some sort of alignment.

And as everybody else has some opinion as to the realism of the sim, I
think it's pretty damn close.  (Of course I haven't RACED a bike, but
a bike has been my only form of transport for 5 years or so now and I
watch a lot of races)   The bike seems to do exactly what you would
expect,  having spent years listening to Race Commentaters explaining
why this happens and why that happens etc.
Is it perfect?  Shit I dunno, I've never ridden a super light, super
powerful bike, with no 'fear' of throwing it down the road knowing
that there is a 'spare' machine in the garage for me if I do.  My bike
is  80hp short and 50kg heavier (and it's supposed to be pretty OK as
a bike -  VTR1000).  
What I do know is that it's FUN.  AND when you stuff up a lap 9 out of
10 times :-(  you can spend the rest of the lap trying to balance on
your rear wheel.. and have a lot of success, unlike WSB.  Gotta luv
that manual lean control...  

Tob
On Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:42:22 -0400, "Steve Blankenship"



>> I'm talking more about all-out braking. I was under the impression
>> (perhgaps mistaken?) that one should not apply 100% brakes at top
>> speed.

>True.  Grabbing full brakes instantly at speed WILL dump you in RL.  You
>won't flip, but you'll lose the front end and.........I don't want to think
>about it. :-)  I haven't tried it yet, but I wonder what GP500 will do with
>separate front and rear brake inputs and slamming on just the front in a
>straight line.  In RL, you munch it.  A bit more gradual application will
>result in a nose wheelie once the weight transfers to the front end and the
>fork compresses.  With such short wheelbases and high CG's, the weight
>transfer on bikes is enormous.  The reverse of the front brake scenario is
>pretty much how power-on rear traction works too.  Everything at once and
>you spin the tire.  Give it time to transfer the weight and you're looking
>at the pretty clouds.  Dangerous critters!

>Cheers,

>Steve B.

Steve Blankenshi

GP500 realistic?

by Steve Blankenshi » Sun, 15 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Well now I have; rather odd results below.

With F&R brakes mapped to separate buttons(!!) on a Wingman Formula:

1. You CAN apply throttle and brakes simultaneously this way, though it
won't allow it with separate axes on an analogue basis.
2. You cannot lock the front wheel on pavement when upright, but it will
lift the rear off the ground.  You can lock it in the grass, with the
expected result.  OOF!  You can also lowside with too much front brake in a
turn.
3. You can wheelie, hit the front brake while the wheel's up, drop the nose,
and nothing bad happens.  Still can't lock it.  Hmmmm....
4. If you slam on the front brake only with the throttle wide open, the bike
will slow to a stop, doing a nose wheelie, and the rear wheel will come to a
stop while it's still airborne(with throttle still pegged and no rear
brake).  Uh-oh.....
5. You can slide the rear using a separate input easily.  However, it's
canned.  You CANNOT lock the rear and keep it locked without falling, even
with the bike upright and pointed straight .  It's fairly easy to do on a
real bike, even from pretty high speed.  In the game, the bike goes sideways
and then down, regardless of input, and not  always in the direction it
should, given the lean.  And if you do a straight-line nose wheelie with
front brake only, then hit the rear brake while the back wheel's  in the
air, the rear end will kick sideways just like when it's sliding on the
ground.  Now THAT'S a new one..... :-(

With F&R brakes mapped to brake pedal (combined axes):

1.  No more sliding the rear into corners, or anywhere else, for that
matter, even on the grass.  It DOES seem to stop a touch quicker than using
front-only, so there must be some sort of preset brake bias when both are
mapped to the same input.  I'd wondered about that, since I'd guess a lot of
players will have them mapped that way.  It must be about 90/10 or so.  An
adjustable bias, perhaps via an INI file setting, would be a nice addition
for the retail version, and would help you get a bit more use from the rear
brake with combined inputs.  There was actually a real aftermarket
mechanical setup like that some years back with adjustable bias via the
linkage, operated from the foot pedal.

A couple of final, brake-free bits:

1. I've noticed a sudden slowdown in my framerate at times, usually
mid-race.  It starts out butter-smooth(C450/V3), then at some point it'll
suddenly drop, remaining slow for the rest of the race. The game doesn't
drop out of real time(good!), doesn't appear to be paging to my HD, and it
seems I have to quit the game and restart to cure it.  Anyone else seen
this?

2. Using the helmet-cam (view 4), the perspective has too much lean in the
corners.  The viewpoint moves side-to-side with the rider as it should, but
while he keeps his head pretty level(watch him in view 2), YOUR view is way
too tilted.  Dialing that back a bit in the retail would help.

Oh well, enough of this silly knob-twisting; I need a beer.  Still a fun
demo, but getting less sim-ish by the minute.

Cheers,

Steve B.

Michae

GP500 realistic?

by Michae » Tue, 17 Aug 1999 04:00:00



Ah - you're not using those 1971 Avon Slipmasters are you?:-)

- Michael
ex-GSX1100R

Eric Cot

GP500 realistic?

by Eric Cot » Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Actually i did a major High Side :)

So it works



> >trust us.  its realistic.  my friend owns a few bikes, sport bikes has
> >tested throwing around his weight.  at a good speed, you can do a full
> >lean and it will turn very little.  Bike will only slip if your on the gas
> >or break in a turn.  Trust me the physics is very well done in gp500.

> So you're saying that a bike of this power will not flip over you if
> you apply 100% full-on brakes at full speed?

> Joe McGinn
> ==========================================
> Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/***.com/
> ==========================================

  webmaster.vcf
< 1K Download
McKafr

GP500 realistic?

by McKafr » Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:00:00

it will

it happened in 97 or 98 in the Spanish GP in Montmelo ...

it was a close battle in 250cc , and a British guy (cant remember who was)
misjudged a slipstream in the main straight and collided with his right hand
(brake) with the back of the guy in front, the bike flipped and he went over
his bike ... no injuries, but a frightening accident

McKafre De La Rosa

Eric Smith escribi en mensaje ...



>>I'm talking more about all-out braking. I was under the impression
>>(perhgaps mistaken?) that one should not apply 100% brakes at top
>>speed.

>You are mistaken.  Braking at speed is limited by tire traction, not by any
>chassis dynamics.  Bikes don't 'flip over' when using all available
traction
>for braking.

Harald Boer

GP500 realistic?

by Harald Boer » Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:00:00


This was Jeremy McWilliams. Yes, this was the most bizarre accident I have
ever seen. And he walked away.........

Harald

Eric Smi

GP500 realistic?

by Eric Smi » Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:00:00


>it was a close battle in 250cc , and a British guy (cant remember who was)
>misjudged a slipstream in the main straight and collided with his right hand
>(brake) with the back of the guy in front, the bike flipped and he went over
>his bike ... no injuries, but a frightening accident

Sounds like this was partly due to the collision and was not purely a braking
accident.

Trust me on this one.  When braking at speed, maximum braking power is limited
by tire traction, not by the bike "flipping over".

People try to use that same argument when explaining why they *don't* use the
front brake.  The one with 75-90% of the stopping power.  Bah.

Eric

Harald Boer

GP500 realistic?

by Harald Boer » Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Eric Smith heeft geschreven in bericht ...

No. Last year I have seen this accident app. 20 times on Eurosport and there
was even McWilliams himself explaining what had happened: He came out of the
slipstream but didn't go wide enough and hit with his brake-lever the back
of the bike he wanted to pass. The rear end of the bike just came up. Now I
know you point from using the front brake, because I know that Supersport
600 rider Wilco Zeelenberg doesn't use the rear brake at all. He usually
saws it to pieces to reduce weight. But McWilliams bike flipped over purely
of hitting the brake lever. Just a freak accident.

Cheers,

Harald

Don Scurlo

GP500 realistic?

by Don Scurlo » Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:00:00


>Sounds like this was partly due to the collision and was not purely a braking
>accident.

>Trust me on this one.  When braking at speed, maximum braking power is limited
>by tire traction, not by the bike "flipping over".

>People try to use that same argument when explaining why they *don't* use the
>front brake.  The one with 75-90% of the stopping power.  Bah.

>Eric

Sorry Eric I have to disagree.  On a street bike with street *** yes,  on a
250 or 500 gp bike keeping your rear wheel down IS the limiting factor.

Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.

DjFI

GP500 realistic?

by DjFI » Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:00:00

that is also one thing i noticed.  even if you switch it so its all front break
your using.  but you can do a nice standing wheel spin.  but there is the lack
of excessive smoke.  its still a good game.  but lots of the crashing bits are
missing.  and i have noticed that.

DjFIL



> >        Acceleration. It lacks the feel, the thrill, the rush of
> >acceleration. In GPL you can almost feel the car squirming under you and
> >drifting as you accelerate. I just don't sense the speed in GP500.

> I'd noticed that too. SBK had a better sense of speed IMO, and SBK
> wasn't that great in the sense of speed/accel cvategory either.

> >Back wheel will hover  a foot in the
> >air before the wheel locks up. and for those worried about rear brakes not
> >have a separate controller. Rear brakes does nothing to slow down bake. All
> >the weight is on the front.

> SBK had this effect (rear wheel rising under excessive braking) but I
> can't make the GP500 bikes do it.

> Joe McGinn
> ==========================================
> Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/***.com/
> ==========================================

Gunnar Horrigm

GP500 realistic?

by Gunnar Horrigm » Sat, 21 Aug 1999 04:00:00



> >it was a close battle in 250cc , and a British guy (cant remember who was)
> >misjudged a slipstream in the main straight and collided with his right hand
> >(brake) with the back of the guy in front, the bike flipped and he went over
> >his bike ... no injuries, but a frightening accident

> Sounds like this was partly due to the collision and was not purely a braking
> accident.

I've seen bikes flipping over from pure braking.

braking is limited by a number of things.  the biggest factor is probably fear.

--
Gunnar -- '98 Super Primerbird '92 G00F2
   #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2  
            de vakreste ord p? jord:  saldo i Deres fav?r


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