rec.autos.simulators

by **jason moy** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:25:34

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:47:06 GMT, "Byron John Forbes"

> Just to be totally clear, when one does this one is depressing the brake
>pedal by the smallest amount possible. Gently scrubbing off speed is a
>better term to use than "braking". Every little bit helps to keep one out of
>the sand traps :)

While I'm not the greatest trailbraker in the world, I usually think
of it as slowly releasing the brake pedal as I turn in until I'm fully
off the brakes just before I reach the corner apex. I can't do it
consistently, but when I do get it right it's amazing how much better
the car turns since you're keeping the weight on the front wheels.

Of course, more often than not I don't trailbrake enough and miss the
apex by 5 feet.

Jason

by **Larr** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:42:20

I'll give Nosiring this. If you want to go out and play slidy-race-car,
this is the place to do it :)

-Larry

> You make a good point here Ken. The really fast guys seem to get a wider
> entry without washing up or spinning out which then gives them a later
apex
> which lets em mash the gas sooner giving a great run off and great lap
> times.

> I was running some Norisring with Ginger and man o man he could take some
of
> those turns wide and still have grip. When I got out there I was sliding
> all over which ends up slowing me down. I think trail braking is what Im
> missing although Ive been playing around with the technique Im still
> somewhat out of control. Part of my problem may be my current AL Perf
> pedals though.

> Mitch

> > > Well, I'd say they are the easiest - most definantly not the most
> important.
> > > If you stuff up the turn in then you have also stuffed up mid corner
> and all
> > > that can possibly be ok is exit. A good turn in is critical to any
> corner and
> > > usually sets the tone for a good all around (nice pun here) corner.

> > If you miss the turn in you are NOT on the proper line, so yes you have
> messed
> > up the turn. "The line" goes whole way around the track including the
> entry to
> > the corners, where you apex, exit, and the sections in between. And if
you
> don't
> > think the line is important then try driving only using the inside half
of
> the
> > track sometime and see if it affects you laptimes. :-)

by **Joachim Trens** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:47:59

> In the RW, it's advisable to ease up on the braking whilst downshifting

I do that in N2k3 as well (did it in GPL and in any other sim probably
as well) to prevent the rear wheels from locking up momentarily and thus
upset the car's balance.

It does not seem to impede my braking performance.

Achim

by **Mitch_** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:59:14

lol yeppers

by **Steve Smit** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:03:05

There is one other issue w. trail braking: tire heat (or overheating). On a
mostly-lefts track like Nose Ring (or, worse, Badone), perfect trail braking
will put more heat in the RF tire (you're nearer the NE edge of the traction
circle than true magnetic north; i.e., you're leaning harder on the RF),
which, as Achim and others have pointed out, seems to suffer from a bug in
the N2003 executable, and tends to run hotter than the other tires no matter
what. Thus, if the RF is getting into the yellow under straight-line
braking, it will probably ease into the red under trail-braking. Discuss
among yourselves.

> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:47:06 GMT, "Byron John Forbes"

> > Just to be totally clear, when one does this one is depressing the
brake
> >pedal by the smallest amount possible. Gently scrubbing off speed is a
> >better term to use than "braking". Every little bit helps to keep one out
of
> >the sand traps :)

> While I'm not the greatest trailbraker in the world, I usually think
> of it as slowly releasing the brake pedal as I turn in until I'm fully
> off the brakes just before I reach the corner apex. I can't do it
> consistently, but when I do get it right it's amazing how much better
> the car turns since you're keeping the weight on the front wheels.

> Of course, more often than not I don't trailbrake enough and miss the
> apex by 5 feet.

> Jason

by **bluestringe** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:58:18

> >I figure Ill just do it in stages as Ive always done. The new BRD
Speed7
> >wheel sounds mighty tasty too and I got a 40th knockin at my doorstep :)

> Eh, you're just a KID...<g>
> (40 in 2003)

> Eldred

Eh....what's that you say youngster?
(52 in 2003)

bluestringer

by **Eldre** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:43:41

>Eh....what's that you say youngster?
>(52 in 2003)

No comment...<g>

Eldred
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by **Eldre** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:43:42

>Just thought I'd chip in with something not mentioned yet (unless I
>missed a post). It's VERY important to apply the brakes gradually.
>What I mean is don't stamp on them to their full travel at the moment
>you wish to brake. This essentially causes massive weight shift
>forward, which is harder to "brake" against, hence you generally
>have your "full travel" set at about 80% of potential braking force
>to avoid lock up. By "set at" I mean you've either got the squash
>ball, or other method of restricting travel OR your foot is just
>educated at that level.

Maxx! Good to see you around!
I currently don't have any way of restricting brake travel. A TSW2mod doesn't
really(that I've seen) lend itself to a squash ball mod. Of course, I could
just not understand how it's supposed to be set up. I've never seen a picture
of how it should be...

Eldred
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by **Eldre** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:43:43

>What Malc said (above): REAL important, esp. the part about coming off the
>brakes, 'cuz if you just POP off the binders, not only will you spike
>outside the traction circle, you've prolly also slowed down a lot more than
>you needed to (otherwise, you'd time-consumingly slew coming off the
>brakes). Believe it.

I don't understand - how does 'popping off the binders' slow you down more...?

My common approach to a turn goes like this:

Brake like hell in a straight line coming up to the turn to get slowed down to
what I think is a safe speed
Get off the brake/turn in (I honestly can't tell which I do first)
After turn in, get back on the gas.(because I think I'm going too slow)
Lift in mid turn(or coast) to make sure I'll make the turn(because I think I'm
going too fast)
After the car is on the next straight, apply gas again

Yes, I know this is probably what's screwing me up...but I have been unable to
change it. Even after I realized what I was doing(I don't remember exactly
what made me aware of it), I don't know how to change...

Eldred
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by **Ruud Dingeman** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:03:53

> Get off the brake/turn in (I honestly can't tell which I do first)
> After turn in, get back on the gas.(because I think I'm going too slow)
> Lift in mid turn(or coast) to make sure I'll make the turn(because I think I'm
> going too fast)

> Yes, I know this is probably what's screwing me up...but I have been unable to
> change it. Even after I realized what I was doing(I don't remember exactly
> what made me aware of it), I don't know how to change...

Eldred, I recognize some of this - what I learned after a while (besides
using the gears/engine to slow down in a more stable fashion) is that I
now do the "get back on the gas" part earlier and smoother. I brake a
tiny bit less late, for the Glen's Ninety let's say, and then after
getting off the brake I immediatly get on the gas again, but *only a
bit* and then I hold it there, for the first part of the turn, just a
quarter-second or so; and after the car's stabilized like this and I
know I'm getting out of the turn, I really get the throttle down.

So the 'getting back on the gas' after braking is probably good, but you
could do it maybe a bit more timidly, just enough to hold the speed and
stabilize the car; as above, it sounds like you're whacking on the
throttle pedal a bit too hard in the first part. Just try and do the
same but a bit less brutal - that way, at least you wouldn't have to
back down in the middle of the turn, and can accelerate more smoothly.

Hope it helps,

Regards, Rudy
(GPLRank -21)

by **Steve Smit** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:44:12

The TSW2 doesn't need it. There's enuf pedal travel that you shouldn't need
a tennis ball to tell you when enuf's enuf. You might raise the spring
strength if yer having trouble. Or use the F10 view (GPL) or roof cam
(N2003) and let the puff of white smoke tell you when yer locking up the
brakes (hey, it works for the Vatican!).

> >Just thought I'd chip in with something not mentioned yet (unless I
> >missed a post). It's VERY important to apply the brakes gradually.
> >What I mean is don't stamp on them to their full travel at the moment
> >you wish to brake. This essentially causes massive weight shift
> >forward, which is harder to "brake" against, hence you generally
> >have your "full travel" set at about 80% of potential braking force
> >to avoid lock up. By "set at" I mean you've either got the squash
> >ball, or other method of restricting travel OR your foot is just
> >educated at that level.

> Maxx! Good to see you around!
> I currently don't have any way of restricting brake travel. A TSW2mod
doesn't
> really(that I've seen) lend itself to a squash ball mod. Of course, I
could
> just not understand how it's supposed to be set up. I've never seen a
picture
> of how it should be...

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> Member
> Screamers Racing League
> IICC League
> GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
> ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71
> Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress
> N2k3 rank:in progress

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by **Steve Smit** » Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:56:25

If yer right on the limit of (longitudinal) adhesion when you jump OFF the
brakes, the sudden rearward weight transfer will upset the car, maybe even
enuf to lose the rear end. Thus, if yer in the habbit of jumping off the
brakes, yer prolly compensating by being on the safe side of the limit of
long. adhes., ergo yer not getting the most outta yer brakes. Q.E.D.

Turning in before lifting (or braking) vs. the opposite is critical. The
best place to demonstrate this is T3 at MIS. You need rather different
setups for one vs. the other. Generalizing, if yer setup pushes, start
turning in first (and v.v.).

I know what you mean abt. being able to identify yer mistakes w/o being able
to correct 'em. I used to tell the tennis pro what mistake I was about to
make before his return shot even cleared the net...then go ahead and make
the mistake exactly as promised. He quit in disgust. (So I became a race
driver!)

> >What Malc said (above): REAL important, esp. the part about coming off
the
> >brakes, 'cuz if you just POP off the binders, not only will you spike
> >outside the traction circle, you've prolly also slowed down a lot more
than
> >you needed to (otherwise, you'd time-consumingly slew coming off the
> >brakes). Believe it.

> I don't understand - how does 'popping off the binders' slow you down
more...?

> My common approach to a turn goes like this:

> Brake like hell in a straight line coming up to the turn to get slowed
down to
> what I think is a safe speed
> Get off the brake/turn in (I honestly can't tell which I do first)
> After turn in, get back on the gas.(because I think I'm going too slow)
> Lift in mid turn(or coast) to make sure I'll make the turn(because I think
I'm
> going too fast)
> After the car is on the next straight, apply gas again

> Yes, I know this is probably what's screwing me up...but I have been
unable to
> change it. Even after I realized what I was doing(I don't remember
exactly
> what made me aware of it), I don't know how to change...

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> Member
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by **Eldre** » Fri, 30 Jan 2004 02:38:41

How - is it adjustible? If I have to *replace* the spring, know any good
suppliers?

Vatican? Ok, I don't understand that one...

Eldred
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by **Eldre** » Fri, 30 Jan 2004 02:43:04

Since N2k3 shows pedal input(right?), maybe someone could see exactly what I'm
doing if I posted a lap...
I don't have N2k3 Replay analyzer, because there was a cost for it. I hadn't
justified spending the money, since I'm not in any NASCAR leagues anymore...
Besides, having GPLRA for the past 3 years didn't exactly let me improve by
leaps and bounds. It's one thing to see what someone else is doing - it's an
entirely different thing to be able to do it yourself.

Eldred
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by **Eldre** » Fri, 30 Jan 2004 03:02:11

Maxx gave me a braking drill to do at Silverstone a while ago. Basically just
braking for the turn, but not hitting the gas again until track out, IIRC.
Maybe I need to revisit that... I never got the hang of it.
The problem I think I ran into was that I could never figure out exactly how
much braking would get me through the turn safely. It always seemed like I'd
fall off the outside.

v.v.?
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rec.autos.simulators

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