rec.autos.simulators

Mine are very close to yours, 19 front and 20 rear on most setups.  I think the
reason is that I slide the rear end a lot, so the fronts don't heat up as much,
but the rears cook.  I just can't figure out an understeering car.

Don McCorkle
Libertarian Motorsports

Aubrey wrote

I can relate to that Aubrey. I wondered when my own constant improvement
with GPL would end - 1:07s, 1:06s, 1:05s, lower 1:05s! at WG. All the time
there were guys going around 2 secs quicker no matter how I improved :(. Now
the improvements are hundredths not sufficient to make progress on the quick
guys.

I can put forward several theories:

1) A magical setup change: I convince myself there is some tweak which may
only give me a lap before the engine/tyres explode but will make me go 2
secs faster. I think there is little chance!

2) Sheer lack of talent/technique: NO WAY! - well all right then I suppose
it could be true :(

3) GPL physics suit some driver styles better than others: In the same way
that some F1 drivers never seem to get the feel for a particular car no
matter how they set it up whilst their team mate blitzes them every time,
then a move to another team revitalises their performance. Maybe this is the
case.

4) Hardware setup: We do not have a level playing field. The performance of
GPL on one PC may feel very different on another PC in terms of perceived
control feedback (I do not mean force feedback here folks). We know a
joystick may be the quickest for some rather than a wheel. Others report
major improvements by modifying brake pedal resistance (force not
electrical!)

I guess in my case it's a combination of the last 3, probably 2 is the most
likely if I am truly honest.

As for 3, well I think the truly quick guys are simply truly quick, and will
adapt to whatever the next physics model is. I do reassure myself that I
could be the sim equivalent of Zanardi, struggling in F1 just waiting for a
new CART sim to blitz all you guys cos it suits my driving style more than
yours. This is wishful thinking.

Regarding 4, I'm pretty happy with my set up - I know other guys with same
wheel & slower PCs who are quicker (GNasher for one) than me, so its unlikey
to be 2 secs waiting to be wiped off by some magical new purchase

Setups? Well I've tried radical changes to no avail, so no major benefit to
be gained here.

So it has to be technique - time to re-evaluate each corner and how best to
enter/exit for optimum lap times. There is a great danger in getting into a
pattern of braking points, gear changes and not being able to change the
pattern to make gains.

Maybe I will never find that technique - I do not think it can be taught, it
is a feel thing. Which is why GPL is so great - cos you feel the effects.

I may have to accept those 2 secs are beyond me, park my Ferrari on the grid
& connect up a virtual hosepipe to the exhaust - then you hotshots will feel
sorry for me as you blast past with 1:03s on your pitboards...

Tony

        The one thing you didn't mention is "longevity".  It's easy to last a
full 9 laps at the Glen.  but what about 108 laps?  Just ask Mark
Seery!  he was running very slow laps at the Glen GP back in april.  In
fact his qualifying lap time was only 1:07.02 and placed 12th on the
grid.  The pole sitter ran a qualifying lap of (R. Prydden) 1:04.33 .and
finnished 1st
2.  M. Uren ........1:05.13..5
3.  V. Eiland ......1:05.57..3
4.  L. Heir ........1:05.71..9
5.  M. Carver ......1:05.72..4
6.  J. Bierman .....1:05.73..7
7.  M. Barlow ......1:05.82..15
8.  E. Paddock .....1:06.19..8
9.  j. Antley ......1:06.26..6
10. C. Schletter ...1:06.32..14
11. E. Corleone ....1:06.83..12
----------------------
12 M. SEERY ........1:07.02..*2*
----------------------
13 B. Bruce ........1:08.05..10
14 C. Rouleau ......1:09.27..13
15 T. Pitch ........1:14.36..11

        Even though he was running these slow laps, He finished in SECOND place
completing 106 laps.  Just look at all those drivers he beat, 10
drivers.

        So, Just because some drivers have fast lap times, doesn't mean they
can last a real race length.

Mike Barlow

--
=========================================
Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
=========================================
Racing online with the help of......

Race Communications Association
http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html
Holodyne Engineering

Mystic Music

(have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

If GPL models the tire pressures similar to N2 which from my experience it
does... The reason most people use higher PSI's in the back especially for
EARLY in a run is because it actually tightens the car.  Those rear tires
will heat up slightly faster with more air pressure.  However, after the
tires heat up it will actually cause the car to become more "loose" in
comparison to your car/setup.  Note:  I am assuming everything on each car
is the same except the tire PSI's.

Bill / Amish on TEN

P.S.  I just noticed you say you have a understeering car... Raising the
rear tire PSI's COULD help.  It could be one of a million different changes
that could help...

Why does an overheated tyre give back less grip?

Rob Swindells
3rd equal in Goldline Bearing FFord Championship (18 Points);
9 points behind Championship Leader (as of round 4 of 6)
"If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than any time
before." ~Martin Brundle

Because it's made of *** - as heat goes up it "melts", with the
surface getting greasy and more prone to damage/blistering. That's
also why racing tyres are as thin as possible both in tread and
sidewall, to stop excess heat build-up due to hystersis.

Cheers!
John

What I said was I can't figure out an understeering car,  My bad, that's not
what I meant at all.  I should have said I can't understand how people can
drive an understeering car.  I like 'em loose and wiggly so I can steer with my
right foot.

Thanks for the help,
Don McCorkle
Libertarian Motorsports

Your story is very recognizable for me :)

Technique is ofcourse the most important of all things. Don't even
bother playing with setups untill you know how to drive the best line
for each corner. Untill you learn that, and get consistent lap times,
it's no use fiddling with setups.

I had great difficulty with the 1.1 patch to drive below 1.29 on
monza, even 1.29's took me a lot of concentration.
I spend an evening working on my setup, drove a few laps, and then it
was no problem anymore for me to drive low 1.28's.

About the hardware setup: as long as you get constant fps above 25, it
shouldn't make much difference compared to fast pc's, perhaps a few
tenths because driving with more fps is smoother.

The best thing is to compare your driving technique with the technique
of faster drivers using SpyGirl and GPLDump.
When you feel you've got the technique right, then start playing with
your setup.

Andre

On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:21:00 +0100, "Tony Rickard"

:>Why does an overheated tyre give back less grip?

: Because it's made of *** - as heat goes up it "melts", with the
: surface getting greasy and more prone to damage/blistering. That's
: also why racing tyres are as thin as possible both in tread and
: sidewall, to stop excess heat build-up due to hystersis.

  AS one of the Williams engineers (Brian something - I forget what)
explained it in a lecture here in York:

  At low temperatures, the tyres are simply too hard - they're not
sticky enough.  As the tyres "melt" there's an optimal temperature
where they are of exactly the right consistency to stick to the road.
Above that temperature they are too "greasy" - they're too moulten and
will flow instead of dig in.  This also causes excess wear.

  I guess it's loosely anaglogous to spring settings - too hard (tyres
too cold) and you skate over rough surfaces without digging in - too
soft and you bounce back out of any dips.

  [Note - I did say _loosely_ analogous]

--
Richard G. Clegg     Only the mind is waving
Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.

www: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

They can/like to drive a understeering car normally because mentally it
gives them more control.  OR... They like to drive by braking more early
into a corner and get on the gas quicker on the exit.  My personal choice is
I would rather drive a balanced car vs a loose or tight car.  If I had my
choice of either or... Heheheh, I like a tight (understeer) car early in a
race because of all the 1 lap wonders and I want a car that I can have
complete control over but would like a loose (Oversteer) car later in the
race.  Therefore... based on my previous info... That is why you may see
people like myself have higher rear tire psi's.  It will make the car more
pushy early in a run, but "looser" later in the run.

Bill / Amish on TEN

I'm exactly the opposite - I can't drive a loose car at all. I need to have
the confidence that when I plant the throttle, the rear of the car will
keep more or less in line <g>

The key to driving an understeering car is to enter the corner at the right
speed and accelerate through the corner - if you enter too fast and have to
lift then the rear tyres will have too much lateral grip available
resulting in the car displaying it's understeering characteristics. Keep
accelerating and a well set up understeering car will finish the corner
perfectly balanced, with no overt sliding and - most importantly - with
excellent exit speed.

Cheers,
Richard

Well, I appreciate everyone's replies and their attempts to
help me.  But NOBODY actually said they could turn 1:03's
with my kind of setup, so I'm gonna start experimenting with
22 psi on the rear tires.

Just as a side note, I did the GPLDump thing-
comparing myself with some hotlapper replays, and found that
I was losing most of my time midcorner.  So I suspect
something's going wrong when I make the transition from
braking to accelerating, maybe too much understeer.  I like
a setup that's neutral in all situations, and maybe you just
can't get that with the way I was setting up the tires.  It
was pretty mind blowing to find out that I could accelerate
and brake just as effectively as the hotshoes, but was doing
something wrong midcorner.  Gotta get those Vmin's up.

Isn't it great how much discipline GPL requires?  There's no
other game like it!

Once again, thanks for your help.

     -A

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As far as I know there are less than 20 people in the world who have
done a hotlap in the 1:03's anyway, and that was with low-rider setups
that have been outlawed in GPL 1.1!

If you're using 1.0, you could try downloading one of those hotlap
setups from:

        http://216.13.117.36/~schubi/fastlaps.htm

Or would you consider that cheating?!  ;-)

Aubrey when I hear you say you are loosing time mid-corner... That could
mean your car is not "hooking" up early enough.  When you are getting back
on the gas you are probably getting some wheel spin in the rear tires.  Try
to figure out a way not to get the car too tight (understeer) as to make it
harder to drive into the corner, but it seems as if they (hotlappers) are
getting a better run off the corners, based on what you are saying.
Therefore, it is probable that actually increasing your Rear Tire PSI's may
not be your optimum solution, it could actually hurt the acceleration after
they heat up.  (Get some tire spin on exit).

Bill / Amish on TEN

Tell me what you think...