rec.autos.simulators

by **Schoone** » Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:34:52

Yes, why would people be upset if other rookie drivers know where to drive?
Would you rather have them all over the track running inconsistent lines?
It's in the best interest of everyone that cars run clean laps. As for the
immersion factor then turn it off, it's not as if it's forced on by the
server.

> Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if someone uses
it
> ? A bit on the extreme side IMO.

> -John

> > >On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished'
as
> > >NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of Papyrus.
> That
> > >said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list:
> > >1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss
that
> > >option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor.

> > I disagree with this. Smoke and even forced***pit I can understand,
> > but why the driving line? Might as well have the server force
> > surround sound and the cars/distance drawn too :)

> > >Can't think of anything else.

> > I wish there was a way to connect to a server as a 'broadcaster'. I
> > connect to Server X and can't race, but other people can now join MY
> > computer and watch the race.

by **Ed Solhei** » Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:43:21

Not as far as I know David...

This might just be speculations - but I wouldnt be suprised if Papy choose
to reset everyone's LPI now that it will actually have a meaning.... - but
then maybe not!(here's to hoping!)

--
ed_

"David G Fisher" said:

by **ramb** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:46:43

I think if you have to look at a line to know where to drive, you arent good
enough to be racing online, and will probably just cause wrecks.

> Yes, why would people be upset if other rookie drivers know where to
drive?
> Would you rather have them all over the track running inconsistent lines?
> It's in the best interest of everyone that cars run clean laps. As for
the
> immersion factor then turn it off, it's not as if it's forced on by the
> server.

> > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if someone uses
> it
> > ? A bit on the extreme side IMO.

> > -John

> > > >On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished'
> as
> > > >NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of
Papyrus.
> > That
> > > >said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list:
> > > >1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss
> that
> > > >option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor.

> > > I disagree with this. Smoke and even forced***pit I can understand,
> > > but why the driving line? Might as well have the server force
> > > surround sound and the cars/distance drawn too :)

> > > >Can't think of anything else.

> > > I wish there was a way to connect to a server as a 'broadcaster'. I
> > > connect to Server X and can't race, but other people can now join MY
> > > computer and watch the race.

by **Joachim Trens** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 03:29:30

Hi Dave,

don't worry about that. Most servers will set their lpi fairly low anyway -
just look at the ratings they require: they're usually set to 0-10, with
only very few asking anything but 0 on the left hand side.

Achim

by **Joachim Trens** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 03:33:48

I'm pretty sure the Papy servers will remain set to low or zero lpi, and as
I said to David, looking at how most servers hardly use the current ranking
system (most are set to 0-10), I don't expect the majority of servers to
impose any major restrictions WRT the lpi.

RASCAR probably won't use lpi anyway, as these races are passworded anyway.

Achim

> So, how does one get onto the ladder. I have not joined a league and
> have not raced online yet in N2K2. My N4 LPI was pretty cruddy
> (20ish), because with the limited time I have all I could partake in
> was pickups on Papy servers, which, given I actually wanted a field to
> race against, were almost always SS, and therefore almost inevitably
> wrecker-fests. It's actually been months since I've ventured online.
> I don't want to risk other people's fun getting online until I have a
> PC that's more up to the task (it pains me to be missing out on
> RASCAR), but once I do, am I even going to be able to get started?

> With wreckers locked out, will newbies have a chance?

> As an aside, it may be a little while before I can get to RASCAR for
> reasons mentioned above, but can I reserve #69?

> Pretty please???

> Mark
> Reading, UK

- Show quoted text -

by **Schoone** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:00:49

I think those that complain about the line aren't good enough to win when
others are using it ;)
The line helps people run consistent laps especially at new tracks. I
personally agree that most should be able to run without it if racing online
but most I have seen cannot.

> I think if you have to look at a line to know where to drive, you arent
good
> enough to be racing online, and will probably just cause wrecks.

> > Yes, why would people be upset if other rookie drivers know where to
> drive?
> > Would you rather have them all over the track running inconsistent
lines?
> > It's in the best interest of everyone that cars run clean laps. As for
> the
> > immersion factor then turn it off, it's not as if it's forced on by the
> > server.

> > > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if someone
uses
> > it
> > > ? A bit on the extreme side IMO.

> > > -John

> > > > >On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as
'finished'
> > as
> > > > >NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of
> Papyrus.
> > > That
> > > > >said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list:
> > > > >1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss
> > that
> > > > >option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor.

> > > > I disagree with this. Smoke and even forced***pit I can
understand,
> > > > but why the driving line? Might as well have the server force
> > > > surround sound and the cars/distance drawn too :)

> > > > >Can't think of anything else.

> > > > I wish there was a way to connect to a server as a 'broadcaster'. I
> > > > connect to Server X and can't race, but other people can now join MY
> > > > computer and watch the race.

by **P.C. Oxfor** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:07:33

This is only to say that I've never had fewer 'issues' with such a product,
pre-patch. In evaluating a sim's 'finished quality' you shouldn't really
include the AI element. IMO.

Let's be honest. Rack your memory. Which simulation, one that approaches the
complexity of N2K2, has had satisfactory AI? And I'm including combat flight
sims, wargames, etc. Answer: very few. Or, how about, NONE. OK, maybe GPL
has tough AI pilots, in a relentless, robotic kind of way. I feel that
Papyrus was ingenious enough in N2K2 to make the AI drivers variable in
performance from race to race.

Human-like AI is a mirage, the closer you get the faster it recedes. Maybe
the programmers will arrive one day, but that day won't be tomorrow. Racing
the AI is for those who can't or won't race online. There's just no
comparaison. If the AI is challenging enough to help newbies learn the game
or to practice against then the developer has succeeded, especially in the
dawning age of broadband.

Simracers are the toughest, hardest-to-please consumer group there is.

by **John Pancoas** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 04:00:30

Fwiw, I was just using the AI as an example. Personally, AI issues are
not a concern for me, but for those who do race the AI, they obviously are.

In terms of a finished product pre-patch.........I should hope so, they've
had enough practice at it :)

Being as it's more or less a clone of N4, it shouldn't need any patching,
except for additions, not to fix existing items.

The argument about simracers being the hardest consumers, etc. comes up
again. No, the pc *** industry gets thrown more perks for sub-standard
products than any.
Name one other business you'd be willing to accept the same
results/product quality in, that is received in the software ***
industry. And please spare the "but all software has bugs" etc. spiel.
That's because they're allowed to.

Same thing gets preached over and over for years in the flight sim
industry............be nice to developers or flight sims will go
away..........been hearing that bs for four*** years now myself.........as
flight sims keep getting churned out year after year.

IMO of course :)

-John

> > To a point, I'd agree with this. Still have some of the problems
> > pre-patch N4, and earlier versions, did(pace car bugs, AI issues for
those
> > that race that way, etc.).

> This is only to say that I've never had fewer 'issues' with such a
product,
> pre-patch. In evaluating a sim's 'finished quality' you shouldn't really
> include the AI element. IMO.

> Let's be honest. Rack your memory. Which simulation, one that approaches
the
> complexity of N2K2, has had satisfactory AI? And I'm including combat
flight
> sims, wargames, etc. Answer: very few. Or, how about, NONE. OK, maybe GPL
> has tough AI pilots, in a relentless, robotic kind of way. I feel that
> Papyrus was ingenious enough in N2K2 to make the AI drivers variable in
> performance from race to race.

> Human-like AI is a mirage, the closer you get the faster it recedes. Maybe
> the programmers will arrive one day, but that day won't be tomorrow.
Racing
> the AI is for those who can't or won't race online. There's just no
> comparaison. If the AI is challenging enough to help newbies learn the
game
> or to practice against then the developer has succeeded, especially in the
> dawning age of broadband.

> Simracers are the toughest, hardest-to-please consumer group there is.

by **P.C. Oxfor** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 04:25:11

I stand by these observations:

1- NASCAR 2002 is the best selling, most state of the art racing sim out
there. For now. And they provide free servers.
2- It's good because the developpers are racers themselves and they listen
to their core audience. Papyrus proved its dedication to the sim community
by releasing a 3D patch for GPL long after that title had disappeared from
store shelves. They're good guys.
3- Racing the AI is for timid souls or those cursed with poor internet
connections.
4- I've hung around some of the flight sim forums, the RPG forums, the
wargame forums and nobody does more carping, kvetching, and niggling than
auto simmers. Remark, this might be good for the hobby if it spurs the
developpers on to ever greater efforts. Personally, I couldn't take it.
5- If you can compare it to other software out there what ARE we to compare
it to? EA's F2001 is in its 3rd iteration and has more 'issues' than N2K2.

Just my opinion. Of course.
Cheers,
-Peter

by **The Other Larr** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 05:27:34

30 isn't necessarily bad for WON online racing :)

-Larry

> Is there any way to have our lpi reset other than using a new name?

> As I said in another thread, my lpi is at 30, but only because I ran in so
> many SS pick up races after the game was released and before we got things
> organized here at r.a.s. with the RASCAR races. I've only had four
incidents
> in the 10 RASCAR races we've run (one my fault) and would probably have an
> lpi of about 200 if I had used a new user name when we started them. I
don't
> want to be locked out of any races when the patch is released.

> David G Fisher

> > HI PC,

> > > This means, ...SS races as far as the eye can see
> > > since no one will risk their precious 'LPI' at Richmond,
> > > Bristol, or Sears

> > I wouldn't worry about that. Because once a server sets a higher minimum
> lpi
> > requirement, there will be better and cleaner drivers in that race, and
it
> > will be far less risky for our lpi to join that race. Apart from the
fact
> > that it'll be a lot more fun racing with the cleaner drivers.

> > Finally we'll see realistic races there instead of accident-dodging
> > contests.

> > Achim

by **Admi** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 06:39:47

I agree John, especially when racing with noobs. It shows them where one is
generally going to lift, brake and get back into the gas. A couple of weeks
ago I noticed it paying off since I only got punted once in a Marty race
where noobs tend to drive HARD into the corners and rear end the guys that
actually know how to get around the place.(The line there must have been
showing them 'Hey, lift early, brake straight, then corner...) Leave it be
for the learners, turn it off if you don't like it.

by **John Pancoas** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:11:06

Exactly. It doesn't give an unfair advantage, so don't know why it should
be banned.

-John

> > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if someone uses
> it
> > ? A bit on the extreme side IMO.

> > -John

> I agree John, especially when racing with noobs. It shows them where one
is
> generally going to lift, brake and get back into the gas. A couple of
weeks
> ago I noticed it paying off since I only got punted once in a Marty race
> where noobs tend to drive HARD into the corners and rear end the guys that
> actually know how to get around the place.(The line there must have been
> showing them 'Hey, lift early, brake straight, then corner...) Leave it be
> for the learners, turn it off if you don't like it.

by **John Pancoas** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:13:15

Yep. Because they failed to adapt. Others took their place.

-John

> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:00:30 -0600, "John Pancoast"

> >.be nice to developers or flight sims will go
> >away..........been hearing that bs for four*** years now
myself.........as
> >flight sims keep getting churned out year after year.

> Microprose/Spectrum Holobyte, Dynamix, iMagic, Janes, DiD,
> Digital Integration etc., etc., no longer "churn out" ***
> flightsims, since they're out of business.

by **John Pancoas** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:19:25

True enough. Of course, also true is the fact that the Martinsville pace
bug that existed in N4 BEFORE it was patched, exists now in N2002. Doesn't
speak of polished to me. Marty is unraceable at this point, especially
online.

Don't get me wrong; I think Papy's great, have every title they've made.
I think N2002 is great. But finished, great quality control ?
Hmmm.....don't know about that.

Also, wasn't the GPL 3d patch made "off-time" by the guys, not supported,
etc.(not their idea) by Papy/Sierra at all ? Could be mistaken, but I
believe that's how it went.

I'd have to say flight simmers hold the whine title myself :)

-John

> I stand by these observations:

> 1- NASCAR 2002 is the best selling, most state of the art racing sim out
> there. For now. And they provide free servers.
> 2- It's good because the developpers are racers themselves and they listen
> to their core audience. Papyrus proved its dedication to the sim community
> by releasing a 3D patch for GPL long after that title had disappeared from
> store shelves. They're good guys.
> 3- Racing the AI is for timid souls or those cursed with poor internet
> connections.
> 4- I've hung around some of the flight sim forums, the RPG forums, the
> wargame forums and nobody does more carping, kvetching, and niggling than
> auto simmers. Remark, this might be good for the hobby if it spurs the
> developpers on to ever greater efforts. Personally, I couldn't take it.
> 5- If you can compare it to other software out there what ARE we to
compare
> it to? EA's F2001 is in its 3rd iteration and has more 'issues' than N2K2.

> Just my opinion. Of course.
> Cheers,
> -Peter

by **Haqsa** » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:28:42

He also said "Or give the server boss that option." Which I think is
every bit as reasonable as giving the server boss the option to force
***pit view or force smoke.

> Exactly. It doesn't give an unfair advantage, so don't know why it
should
> be banned.

> -John

> > > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if
someone uses
> > it
> > > ? A bit on the extreme side IMO.

> > > -John

> > I agree John, especially when racing with noobs. It shows them where
one
> is
> > generally going to lift, brake and get back into the gas. A couple
of
> weeks
> > ago I noticed it paying off since I only got punted once in a Marty
race
> > where noobs tend to drive HARD into the corners and rear end the
guys that
> > actually know how to get around the place.(The line there must have
been
> > showing them 'Hey, lift early, brake straight, then corner...) Leave
it be
> > for the learners, turn it off if you don't like it.

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