Top 5 racing sims?

co-worker wants to buy a Logitech G25 and wants to know what games to get to go with it. I like my racing realistic... so much that I've been racing a real dirt car for the last couple of years... so I've not simmed much since about the time the rFactor demo came out... What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) He wants realism, but maybe not quite "real" realism if you know what I mean. :) (and how about for me? What's the best of the best driving sims out there for how the car drives.... graphics be dammed... I want the car to feel like a real car would.) I'm open to all types - oval, road, rally, pointy cars, even Need for Speed if it's good enough. (uh... yeah... somehow I doubt any NFS is going to be even close to realistic enough for me after a couple years of getting real mud in my face.) Ray

news wrote:

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> co-worker wants to buy a Logitech G25 and wants to know what games to > get to go with it. I like my racing realistic... so much that I've been > racing a real dirt car for the last couple of years... so I've not > simmed much since about the time the rFactor demo came out... > > What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) > He wants realism, but maybe not quite "real" realism if you know what I > mean. :) > > (and how about for me? What's the best of the best driving sims out > there for how the car drives.... graphics be dammed... I want the car to > feel like a real car would.) > > I'm open to all types - oval, road, rally, pointy cars, even Need for > Speed if it's good enough. (uh... yeah... somehow I doubt any NFS is > going to be even close to realistic enough for me after a couple years > of getting real mud in my face.) > > Ray

nascar 2003 season is realistic enough for a good majority of nascar drivers :)

news wrote: > co-worker wants to buy a Logitech G25 and wants to know what games to > get to go with it. I like my racing realistic... so much that I've been > racing a real dirt car for the last couple of years... so I've not > simmed much since about the time the rFactor demo came out... [snip] You don't spec out the rigs you have, but if you have decent hardware (IMHO of course): -GT Legends -GTR2 -rFactor -Richard Burns Rally All in no particular order. Those are the only *must haves* in my opinion, out of what you can easily buy today. Jury is still out on RACE, the new Simbin touring car sim - you can get soming similar with the ETCC mod for rFactor. My sentimental favorite for #5 has to be GPL - with all the eye-candy and sound updates, it still has such a unique and complete feel that I'm sure it will never leave my hard drive. And with the shifter and clutch, its one of the few sims that can setup to *require* clutching on shifts. HTH, Kendt

If you could only have one sim, the rFactor is the way to go. The sheer magnitude of the mod options is incredible. You can drive practically any type of car on any track. There are even some dirt racing options. For pure realism, Netkar Pro is supposedly the way to go. I tried the demo and was intrigued. Talk of all the problems (bugs, poor online performance) has kept me from jumping in with both feet. Well, that and the fact that rFactor is so good. Other than that, for current sims you are looking at GTR, GTR2, or GTL. Those are probably a lot easier for a new sim racer to get into. There are also some rally choices, but I don't know anything about those. If oval racing is desired, I would start searching for a copy of N2003. Pat Dotson news wrote:

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> co-worker wants to buy a Logitech G25 and wants to know what games to > get to go with it. I like my racing realistic... so much that I've been > racing a real dirt car for the last couple of years... so I've not > simmed much since about the time the rFactor demo came out... > > What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) > He wants realism, but maybe not quite "real" realism if you know what I > mean. :) > > (and how about for me? What's the best of the best driving sims out > there for how the car drives.... graphics be dammed... I want the car to > feel like a real car would.) > > I'm open to all types - oval, road, rally, pointy cars, even Need for > Speed if it's good enough. (uh... yeah... somehow I doubt any NFS is > going to be even close to realistic enough for me after a couple years > of getting real mud in my face.) > > Ray

[email hidden] wrote:

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> news wrote: >> co-worker wants to buy a Logitech G25 and wants to know what games to >> get to go with it. I like my racing realistic... so much that I've been >> racing a real dirt car for the last couple of years... so I've not >> simmed much since about the time the rFactor demo came out... > > [snip] > > You don't spec out the rigs you have, but if you have decent hardware > (IMHO of course): > > -GT Legends > -GTR2 > -rFactor > -Richard Burns Rally > > All in no particular order. Those are the only *must haves* in my > opinion, out of what you can easily buy today. Jury is still out on > RACE, the new Simbin touring car sim - you can get soming similar with > the ETCC mod for rFactor. > My sentimental favorite for #5 has to be GPL - with all the eye-candy > and sound updates, it still has such a unique and complete feel that > I'm sure it will never leave my hard drive. And with the shifter and > clutch, its one of the few sims that can setup to *require* clutching > on shifts. > > HTH, > Kendt >

That's close to what I sent to him: NASCAR Racing 2003 - probably the best NASCAR style one. Live for Speed GTR ( starforce ) rFactor Grand Prix Legends... old, and extremely difficult. 1967 F1 cars. With 1967 tires. And no downforce. richard burns rally - rally cars Dirt Track Racer 2 I'm waiting for him to get the G25 so I can try it and justify it. :) btw... my gaming rig is an A64 3000/512MB/GeForce 6200, so it's not totally out of date... :) Ray

news wrote: > What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) > He wants realism, but maybe not quite "real" realism if you know what I > mean. :) GTR2 GT Legends Nascar Racing 2003 Season Richard Burns Rally Nothing else is worth bothering with at this point in time, altho if he's into nostalgia Grand Prix Legends isn't that bad.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> news wrote: > > > What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) > > He wants realism, but maybe not quite "real" realism if you know what I > > mean. :) > > GTR2 > GT Legends > Nascar Racing 2003 Season > Richard Burns Rally > > Nothing else is worth bothering with at this point in time, altho if > he's into nostalgia Grand Prix Legends isn't that bad. >

"Isn't that bad", rather like a vicar saying that the bible's not a bad read. GPL was seminal and no doubt influenced the drive for more realistic physics in the subsequent sims. It breathed life into this NG for so many years and got myself and many others interested in racing sims. Even after 8 years it's still one of the most inspirational and involving sims.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> news wrote: > >> What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) >> He wants realism, but maybe not quite "real" realism if you know what I >> mean. :) > > GTR2 > GT Legends > Nascar Racing 2003 Season > Richard Burns Rally > > Nothing else is worth bothering with at this point in time, altho if > he's into nostalgia Grand Prix Legends isn't that bad.

No rFactor? You've got to be f**king kidding, although i did see your avatar at RSC....which makes no sense. CTDP F1 for rFactor is the most fantastic ride I've ever had in sim racing. Pure bliss. -- David G Fisher

"Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> news wrote: >> >>> What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) >>> He wants realism, but maybe not quite "real" realism if you know what I >>> mean. :) >> >> GTR2 >> GT Legends >> Nascar Racing 2003 Season >> Richard Burns Rally >> >> Nothing else is worth bothering with at this point in time, altho if >> he's into nostalgia Grand Prix Legends isn't that bad. > > No rFactor? You've got to be f**king kidding, although i did see your > avatar at RSC....which makes no sense. > > CTDP F1 for rFactor is the most fantastic ride I've ever had in sim > racing. Pure bliss. > -- > David G Fisher >

Race is great game for online racing. It is rather new and some people don't care for it mostly because the title at this point is not moddable and you are supposed to have a Steam Subscription to race online. But, if you like closer racing than GTR2 or GTL which I also like very much Race is the online game and offline the AI is pretty darn good. There also is RFactor which has a very wide variety of mods for it so if there is not a dedicated game for a certain kind of racing the chances of RFactor having it are very good. There are some very good mods for RFactor and some very bad ones which just take up disk space and some are hard to uninstall so be fairly careful about what you download. RFactor Central has reviews of the biggest share of the mods so if you get RFactor that is definitely the place to start getting setup. MILO > >

"Milo Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> news wrote: >>> >>>> What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) >>>> He wants realism, but maybe not quite "real" realism if you know what I >>>> mean. :) >>> >>> GTR2 >>> GT Legends >>> Nascar Racing 2003 Season >>> Richard Burns Rally >>> >>> Nothing else is worth bothering with at this point in time, altho if >>> he's into nostalgia Grand Prix Legends isn't that bad. >> >> No rFactor? You've got to be f**king kidding, although i did see your >> avatar at RSC....which makes no sense. >> >> CTDP F1 for rFactor is the most fantastic ride I've ever had in sim >> racing. Pure bliss. >> -- >> David G Fisher >> > Race is great game for online racing. It is rather new and some people > don't care for it mostly because the title at this point is not moddable > and you are supposed to have a Steam Subscription to race online. > But, if you like closer racing than GTR2 or GTL which I also like very > much Race is the online game and offline the AI is pretty darn good. > There also is RFactor which has a very wide variety of mods for it so if > there is not a dedicated game for a certain kind of racing the chances of > RFactor having it are very good. > There are some very good mods for RFactor and some very bad ones which > just take up disk space and some are hard to uninstall so be fairly > careful about what you download. > RFactor Central has reviews of the biggest share of the mods so if you get > RFactor that is definitely the place to start getting setup. > > MILO >>ps: Also there is the sim that seperates the men from the boys and still >>has a large user group.

That game is the father and grandfather of all our racing sims today or at least the ones I play! GPL is still the King!!! >> > >

Dave F wrote: > CTDP F1 for rFactor is the most fantastic ride I've ever had in sim racing. > Pure bliss. Can't stand it. Not meaning any disrespect to your opinion, of course.

AT wrote: > "Isn't that bad", rather like a vicar saying that the bible's not a bad > read. GPL was seminal and no doubt influenced the drive for more realistic > physics in the subsequent sims. It breathed life into this NG for so many > years and got myself and many others interested in racing sims. Even after 8 > years it's still one of the most inspirational and involving sims. No doubt it was a breakthrough and really pushed the genre forward. It's also incredibly dated and not particularly realistic. It also set the horrible standard that some developers still seem to follow where making the car hard to drive way below the limit is a good thing, when in reality driving most racecars (aside from ones that handled like a 3-legged table, i.e. the Cosworth 4WD F1 car or the Parnelli Jones X-wing Indycar) below the limit isn't a big deal.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Dave F wrote: > >> CTDP F1 for rFactor is the most fantastic ride I've ever had in sim >> racing. >> Pure bliss. > > Can't stand it. Not meaning any disrespect to your opinion, of course.

Why do you dislike it so much? -- David G Fisher

Dave F wrote: > Why do you dislike it so much? That's a tough thing to quantify. Ultimately, I just don't find it particularly convincing I guess. I think the CTDP guys put a lot of effort into their mod and it's waaaay better than the ISI-made open wheelers, it just doesn't do it for me for whatever reason. In general I find it very difficult to understand what the car and tires are doing in response to my inputs in rFactor (and also F1C/F1200x). For whatever reason I never had that problem in SCGT and I don't have it in GTL/GTR2.

NR2003, if it can be found. GPL, if it can be found. rFactor. GTR2. That's about all I come close to caring for these days. -Larry "news" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:vx0ch.3720$[email hidden]...

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> co-worker wants to buy a Logitech G25 and wants to know what games to get > to go with it. I like my racing realistic... so much that I've been > racing a real dirt car for the last couple of years... so I've not simmed > much since about the time the rFactor demo came out... > > What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) > He wants realism, but maybe not quite "real" realism if you know what I > mean. :) > > (and how about for me? What's the best of the best driving sims out there > for how the car drives.... graphics be dammed... I want the car to feel > like a real car would.) > > I'm open to all types - oval, road, rally, pointy cars, even Need for > Speed if it's good enough. (uh... yeah... somehow I doubt any NFS is > going to be even close to realistic enough for me after a couple years of > getting real mud in my face.) > > Ray

I feel that way about pretty much any ISI based Sim, though rFactor and GTR2 are the least skiddish to me. I think the developers are in Alaska, where there's nothing but Ice to drive on. -Larry "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Dave F wrote: > >> Why do you dislike it so much? > > That's a tough thing to quantify. Ultimately, I just don't find it > particularly convincing I guess. I think the CTDP guys put a lot of > effort into their mod and it's waaaay better than the ISI-made open > wheelers, it just doesn't do it for me for whatever reason. In general > I find it very difficult to understand what the car and tires are doing > in response to my inputs in rFactor (and also F1C/F1200x). For > whatever reason I never had that problem in SCGT and I don't have it in > GTL/GTR2. >

Richard Burns Rally is by far my favorite. It's intense and feels so real it's scary. Its cheap now too. Surprised noone mentioned Live For Speed, although I guess the cars and tracks are mostly made up, but it's good online racing and it handles better than any ISI physics IMHO, so assuming those cars DID exist it would be realistic ;)

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 14:47:22 -0600, news <[email hidden]> wrote: >What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) It's a bit like a question of which car I should buy. Personal taste is a big factor in this. So I'll give you my top 5, and the reason why. 1. GPL The physics are a bit outdated, but the game is so well balanced. It still has the finest cockpits/carmodels to date, IMO, thanks to guys like the GPLEA. If you want to win from the AI, you've to work for it, it took me months to win a race. Still playable online, and mods are available for other F1 years, with 'corrected' physics. Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/gameplay/replays. 2. RBR It really gives you a feeling like you're driving a rally car. You notice how fast you're driving, and I'm often scared of the speed, feeling the need to lift. Not easy. The only downside is the fact you don't race others, which got me bored after a while, once I knew the stages. Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/replays, less on gameplay after a while 3. ISI based sims (GTL/GTR2/rFactor) I always have an hate/love relation with ISI based sims. The graphics are great and still there is so much lacking. You can have great dynamic lightning, shadows, cool refections on the car, and stuff like that, but what's the point if the car doesn't seem to be connected to the road? The fact that the replay system isn't that nice doesn't help much eighter. Online you don't see the suspension move of your opponents, and the tyre smoke doesn't feel realistic. The physics feel nice with a better tyremodel than GPL, but I've always the feeling the car floats. It doesn't help that the controller lags a bit. I also don't like the way the brakes behave when the disc is hot, it's too much an on/off switch. The AI is bad (rFactor), or not realistic(GTR2/GTL). They match their speed on your pace, I always hate that. They also do things which would get your licence pulled in real life. I don't like racing them. I also don't like it you've to earn the cars, not all of us do've the time to race severall hours a day to get the credits. Online is a mixed bag. I only played rfactor online, and the problem is that there are too many mods to get a lot of drivers using the mod you like. Since there're so many mods, the quality of drivers is too wide spread, with a small chance of racing a group of drivers evenly matched. So, what is the love part then... :-) It's the immersion when you're driving a car like the Saleen in GTR2 through Eau Rouge, it's the sound, it's the modelling of weather, it's the F1 1979 Mod on Kyalami, and it's the idea that all the problems I have could be fixed easily with the next patch...but the latter thing is true for years with the ISI sims, allthough I keep hoping. Great on sound, mixed feelings with the rest. 4. LFS This is a good online racer, with decent graphics/sounds/physics/replays and stuff. However, the mentallity of other drivers is what kills it for me. I always compare it with Quake on wheels, always expecting an headshot when exiting a turn. Offline the AI is too dull, the same goes for the tracks. Nice on Graphics/Sound/Physics/Replays, mixed feeling about gameplay. 5. NetKar Pro Driving a car in Netkar Pro, if you can get the car started :-/, is the most realistic experience in a sim I have. The latest patch dumbed it down somewhat (Grrr BRD), but it's still a great feeling. Graphics/Sound/Physics, all great. But then, the gameplay...what gameplay? There is no AI, no filled servers online. The only gameplay there is, is an online league, but that doesn't help if it doesn't fit your schedule. It might improve someday, who knows... Great on graphics/sound/physics, mediocre on replays, no gameplay. Well, this is my top 5, for what's worth... Cheers! Remco

You've already had lots of recommendations, heres my opinion... My choices are in no particular order as they all have good and bad points. GPL (Grand Prix Legends) The Grandaddy of modern racing sims, yes its old, yes the graphics are not the best, yes the physiocs are not the best, but..... When you drive GPL, it just "feels" right. Based on the 1967 F1 cars, which had no downforce, no aerodynamics, no wings, no slick tyres, no electronics to help you drive the car, poor brakes, these cars were hard to race in real life and this sim reflected that fact, but keep practising and boy do you get rewarded. An absolute must have. despite the fact that this sim is now approx 8 years old. On-line racing is still a blast with this one too (via VROC) Seek it out and buy it, get the car, track and graphics updates, and enjoy. GTR2 An improvement over the first GTR, with great physics and graphics (but needs a high spec pc) and good on-line racing. GTL A good retro racing sim / game, comparable with GTR2 (its from the same makers) with similar physics, graphics, etc, but here you can race older cars on older tracks in many different formulas. Good on-line racing too. TOCA 3 I've always liked the TOCA sim series, and this is the best yet, the physics are not the best, but the graphics are great and the actual racing is good close fun. You also have a large choice of cars, track and formula's to choose from. Colin McRae Rally 4 (CMR4) or Richard Burns rally (RBR) I think these two are pretty equal in most respects and are probably the best Rally racing sims out there. 8-) *Peter* - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/

On 2 Dec 2006 01:57:37 -0800, "Vectrex" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Richard Burns Rally is by far my favorite. It's intense and feels so >real it's scary. Its cheap now too. >Surprised noone mentioned Live For Speed, although I guess the cars and >tracks are mostly made up, but it's good online racing and it handles >better than any ISI physics IMHO, so assuming those cars DID exist it >would be realistic ;) Do you know of a reputable place to purchase RBR in the US? I just checked Amazon and they offer a CD and DVD version (is it safe to purchase the DVD version?) from a few websites that I've never heard from. Any way, I am going to cancel my long-time Amazon account soon as they now all of a sudden ship everything to me via DHL and DHL doesn't deliver out here (at least on time!). -pw

PW <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > Do you know of a reputable place to purchase RBR in the US? I just > checked Amazon and they offer a CD and DVD version (is it safe to > purchase the DVD version?) from a few websites that I've never heard > from.AFAIR DVD version didn't require disk in the drive and CD version did. But I'm not sure if it was media or if it depended on the country (and country determined the media). Alex.

"PW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On 2 Dec 2006 01:57:37 -0800, "Vectrex" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Richard Burns Rally is by far my favorite. It's intense and feels so >>real it's scary. Its cheap now too. >>Surprised noone mentioned Live For Speed, although I guess the cars and >>tracks are mostly made up, but it's good online racing and it handles >>better than any ISI physics IMHO, so assuming those cars DID exist it >>would be realistic ;) > > > Do you know of a reputable place to purchase RBR in the US? I just > checked Amazon and they offer a CD and DVD version (is it safe to > purchase the DVD version?) from a few websites that I've never heard > from. > > Any way, I am going to cancel my long-time Amazon account soon as they > now all of a sudden ship everything to me via DHL and DHL doesn't > deliver out here (at least on time!). > > -pw

DHL??.....Why in hell would they do that? That leaves half of the rural US having to drive to pick up the parcels. DHL doesn't deliver in my area either. I have to drive 40mi to the terminal if something is shipped through them...... Dumb move. Ed

"alexti" wrote > AFAIR DVD version didn't require disk in the drive and CD version did. But > I'm not sure if it was media or if it depended on the country (and country > determined the media). > > Alex.IIRC in the latest patch (http://www.richardburnsrally.com/support.htm) the copy protection was removed .

Do you know of a reputable place to purchase RBR in the US? I just > checked Amazon and they offer a CD and DVD version (is it safe to > purchase the DVD version?) from a few websites that I've never heard > from. www.gogamer.com is outstanding and, as I recall, ships via FedEx. That's where I got RBR

Here are my suggestions, even though a bit late.. 1) rFactor- has just about every car you can imagine to race. Probably the most complete sim out to date. 2) NR2003- best NASCAR sim to date. 3) GTR2- probably the best driving physics in a sim. 4) GPL- dated, but still a charm. Once mastered nothing rewards the driver more than actually racing for real. 5) F1 2002- easiest F1 sim out of all of, but still a lot of fun. of course this is all subjective and just an opinon.

Actually, you're right. I should put that on my list too. And it's also nice to have a game that a) was cheap and came on DVD and b) doesn't make you insert said disc to play it. As far as I can tell, it doesn't have any sort of copy protection. I don't even remember specifying a key at install time. -Larry "Vectrex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Richard Burns Rally is by far my favorite. It's intense and feels so > real it's scary. Its cheap now too. > Surprised noone mentioned Live For Speed, although I guess the cars and > tracks are mostly made up, but it's good online racing and it handles > better than any ISI physics IMHO, so assuming those cars DID exist it > would be realistic ;) >

Gogaming (or gogamer, i forget) .com. I got it there for like $20, and it came on a single DVD in a snap-case, no copy protection I'm aware of, and doesn't require the disc to be inserted to play. -Larry "PW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On 2 Dec 2006 01:57:37 -0800, "Vectrex" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Richard Burns Rally is by far my favorite. It's intense and feels so >>real it's scary. Its cheap now too. >>Surprised noone mentioned Live For Speed, although I guess the cars and >>tracks are mostly made up, but it's good online racing and it handles >>better than any ISI physics IMHO, so assuming those cars DID exist it >>would be realistic ;) > > > Do you know of a reputable place to purchase RBR in the US? I just > checked Amazon and they offer a CD and DVD version (is it safe to > purchase the DVD version?) from a few websites that I've never heard > from. > > Any way, I am going to cancel my long-time Amazon account soon as they > now all of a sudden ship everything to me via DHL and DHL doesn't > deliver out here (at least on time!). > > -pw

I agree. Service was excellent. -Larry "Darus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > www.gogamer.com is outstanding and, as I recall, ships via FedEx. > > That's where I got RBR >

100% agreement on the ISI comments. I think you nailed it perfectly. -Larry "Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> 1. GPL > The physics are a bit outdated, but the game is so well balanced. > It still has the finest cockpits/carmodels to date, IMO, thanks to > guys like the GPLEA. If you want to win from the AI, you've to work > for it, it took me months to win a race. Still playable online, and > mods are available for other F1 years, with 'corrected' physics. > Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/gameplay/replays. > > 2. RBR > It really gives you a feeling like you're driving a rally car. You > notice how fast you're driving, and I'm often scared of the speed, > feeling the need to lift. Not easy. The only downside is the fact you > don't race others, which got me bored after a while, once I knew the > stages. > Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/replays, less on gameplay after > a while > > 3. > ISI based sims (GTL/GTR2/rFactor) > I always have an hate/love relation with ISI based sims. The graphics > are great and still there is so much lacking. You can have great > dynamic lightning, shadows, cool refections on the car, and stuff like > that, but what's the point if the car doesn't seem to be connected to > the road? > > The fact that the replay system isn't that nice doesn't help much > eighter. Online you don't see the suspension move of your opponents, > and the tyre smoke doesn't feel realistic. > > The physics feel nice with a better tyremodel than GPL, but I've > always the feeling the car floats. It doesn't help that the controller > lags a bit. I also don't like the way the brakes behave when the disc > is hot, it's too much an on/off switch. > > The AI is bad (rFactor), or not realistic(GTR2/GTL). They match their > speed on your pace, I always hate that. They also do things which > would get your licence pulled in real life. I don't like racing them. > I also don't like it you've to earn the cars, not all of us do've the > time to race severall hours a day to get the credits. > > Online is a mixed bag. I only played rfactor online, and the problem > is that there are too many mods to get a lot of drivers using the mod > you like. Since there're so many mods, the quality of drivers is too > wide spread, with a small chance of racing a group of drivers evenly > matched. > > So, what is the love part then... :-) It's the immersion when you're > driving a car like the Saleen in GTR2 through Eau Rouge, it's the > sound, it's the modelling of weather, it's the F1 1979 Mod on Kyalami, > and it's the idea that all the problems I have could be fixed easily > with the next patch...but the latter thing is true for years with the > ISI sims, allthough I keep hoping. > Great on sound, mixed feelings with the rest. > > 4. > LFS > This is a good online racer, with decent > graphics/sounds/physics/replays and stuff. However, the mentallity > of other drivers is what kills it for me. I always compare it with > Quake on wheels, always expecting an headshot when exiting a turn. > Offline the AI is too dull, the same goes for the tracks. > Nice on Graphics/Sound/Physics/Replays, mixed feeling about gameplay. > > 5. > NetKar Pro > Driving a car in Netkar Pro, if you can get the car started :-/, is > the most realistic experience in a sim I have. The latest patch dumbed > it down somewhat (Grrr BRD), but it's still a great feeling. > Graphics/Sound/Physics, all great. But then, the gameplay...what > gameplay? There is no AI, no filled servers online. The only gameplay > there is, is an online league, but that doesn't help if it doesn't fit > your schedule. > > It might improve someday, who knows... > Great on graphics/sound/physics, mediocre on replays, no gameplay. > > > Well, this is my top 5, for what's worth... > > > Cheers! > > Remco > > > > > > > > >

Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and say........it's YOU. Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad setups (or both). If the cars feel like they are on ice, or not connected to the road, or there isn't enough feedback, it isn't the sim, it's you. This isn't a matter of personal feel or agreeing to disagree, but it's somehting that can be easily be proven. I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of the fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. These F1 cars are the perfect shoice to disprove what you claim because they have to be driven exactly like the real drivers do in F1 or you lose massive amounts of time. It is simply impossible to run a clean, realistic looking 118.3 at Silverstone, 128.5 at Shakir, 111.4 at Montreal, 127.3 at Nuerburgring, or a 129.2 at Suzuka without being extremely precise. My replays look as if the car is on rails, and there is no wild sawwing back and forth at the wheel. Smooth and precise, and the car looks GLUED to the road because it's taken to the very limit, but never over. That's the only way you can be fast. GPL style driving will get you absolutely nowhere. Never in a million years could anyone look at one of my replays and say it looks like I'm driving on ice. No one could ever come close to those times in these F1 cars if the car felt loose, and with little feedback. Can't be done. The amount of feedback I get from the car is massive. Any tiny change in the setup and I can instantly feel it. Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say?? It's impossible. I don't know what wheels you use and what settings you've chosen in the controller screen, but they've got to be wrong. The setups must be poor. What's funny is that no one hates a loose feeling car more than me. If what you guys say is true, I'd be the first one to delete rFactor from my hard drive. -- David G Fisher "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:A_Hch.29$[email hidden]... > 100% agreement on the ISI comments. I think you nailed it perfectly. > > -Larry > > "Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >> 1. GPL >> The physics are a bit outdated, but the game is so well balanced. >> It still has the finest cockpits/carmodels to date, IMO, thanks to >> guys like the GPLEA. If you want to win from the AI, you've to work >> for it, it took me months to win a race. Still playable online, and >> mods are available for other F1 years, with 'corrected' physics. >> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/gameplay/replays. >> >> 2. RBR >> It really gives you a feeling like you're driving a rally car. You >> notice how fast you're driving, and I'm often scared of the speed, >> feeling the need to lift. Not easy. The only downside is the fact you >> don't race others, which got me bored after a while, once I knew the >> stages. >> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/replays, less on gameplay after >> a while >> >> 3. >> ISI based sims (GTL/GTR2/rFactor) >> I always have an hate/love relation with ISI based sims. The graphics >> are great and still there is so much lacking. You can have great >> dynamic lightning, shadows, cool refections on the car, and stuff like >> that, but what's the point if the car doesn't seem to be connected to >> the road? >> >> The fact that the replay system isn't that nice doesn't help much >> eighter. Online you don't see the suspension move of your opponents, >> and the tyre smoke doesn't feel realistic. >> >> The physics feel nice with a better tyremodel than GPL, but I've >> always the feeling the car floats. It doesn't help that the controller >> lags a bit. I also don't like the way the brakes behave when the disc >> is hot, it's too much an on/off switch. >> >> The AI is bad (rFactor), or not realistic(GTR2/GTL). They match their >> speed on your pace, I always hate that. They also do things which >> would get your licence pulled in real life. I don't like racing them. >> I also don't like it you've to earn the cars, not all of us do've the >> time to race severall hours a day to get the credits. >> >> Online is a mixed bag. I only played rfactor online, and the problem >> is that there are too many mods to get a lot of drivers using the mod >> you like. Since there're so many mods, the quality of drivers is too >> wide spread, with a small chance of racing a group of drivers evenly >> matched. >> >> So, what is the love part then... :-) It's the immersion when you're >> driving a car like the Saleen in GTR2 through Eau Rouge, it's the >> sound, it's the modelling of weather, it's the F1 1979 Mod on Kyalami, >> and it's the idea that all the problems I have could be fixed easily >> with the next patch...but the latter thing is true for years with the >> ISI sims, allthough I keep hoping. >> Great on sound, mixed feelings with the rest. >> >> 4. >> LFS >> This is a good online racer, with decent >> graphics/sounds/physics/replays and stuff. However, the mentallity >> of other drivers is what kills it for me. I always compare it with >> Quake on wheels, always expecting an headshot when exiting a turn. >> Offline the AI is too dull, the same goes for the tracks. >> Nice on Graphics/Sound/Physics/Replays, mixed feeling about gameplay. >> >> 5. >> NetKar Pro >> Driving a car in Netkar Pro, if you can get the car started :-/, is >> the most realistic experience in a sim I have. The latest patch dumbed >> it down somewhat (Grrr BRD), but it's still a great feeling. >> Graphics/Sound/Physics, all great. But then, the gameplay...what >> gameplay? There is no AI, no filled servers online. The only gameplay >> there is, is an online league, but that doesn't help if it doesn't fit >> your schedule. >> >> It might improve someday, who knows... >> Great on graphics/sound/physics, mediocre on replays, no gameplay. >> >> >> Well, this is my top 5, for what's worth... >> >> >> Cheers! >> >> Remco >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >

Where be LFS... John Smith wrote:

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> Here are my suggestions, even though a bit late.. > > 1) rFactor- has just about every car you can imagine to race. Probably the > most complete sim out to date. > > 2) NR2003- best NASCAR sim to date. > > 3) GTR2- probably the best driving physics in a sim. > > 4) GPL- dated, but still a charm. Once mastered nothing rewards the driver > more than actually racing for real. > > 5) F1 2002- easiest F1 sim out of all of, but still a lot of fun. > > of course this is all subjective and just an opinon. > >

Dave F wrote: > Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and say........it's > YOU. Pretty much yeah. After all we're discussing opinions here for the most part and not facts. There are certain facts that help me form my opinion (like rFactor missing features that are in Simbin products and being based entirely around amateur content) but it's my opinion and I certainly wouldn't expect you to share it. Especially not after we had the same damn brawls over F1 2000/F1 2000CS/F1 2001/F1 2002/F1C.

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:hWHch.24$[email hidden]: > Actually, you're right. I should put that on my list too. And it's > also nice to have a game that a) was cheap and came on DVD and b) > doesn't make you insert said disc to play it. > > As far as I can tell, it doesn't have any sort of copy protection. I > don't even remember specifying a key at install time.Isn't it curious that the great sims don't use copy protection (GPL, RBR)? Alex.

"Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > My replays look as if the car is on rails, and there > is no wild sawwing back and forth at the wheel. Smooth and precise, and > the car looks GLUED to the road because it's taken to the very limit, > but never over. That's the only way you can be fast. GPL style driving > will get you absolutely nowhere. Never in a million years could anyone > look at one of my replays and say it looks like I'm driving on ice.Very smooth and precise is exactly how you have to drive on racing slicks on the ice :) Alex.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Dave F wrote: > >> Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and >> say........it's >> YOU. > > Pretty much yeah. After all we're discussing opinions here for the > most part and not facts. There are certain facts that help me form my > opinion (like rFactor missing features that are in Simbin products and > being based entirely around amateur content) but it's my opinion and I > certainly wouldn't expect you to share it. Especially not after we had > the same damn brawls over F1 2000/F1 2000CS/F1 2001/F1 2002/F1C.

Please answer the following question with something logical and factual, and I'll quit sim racing forever. "Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say??" rFactor is entirely based around amateur content? It comes with at least 13 tracks with multiple configurations, and F1, F3, Skip Barber trainers, NASCAR, rally, and a few other tin top cars. What content did N2003 have? A SINGLE car model and a bunch of ovals that were just rehashed from previous versions. Wow. Simbin are "amateurs" who one day decided to charge for their mods, so now are professionals I guess. Making people pay and incorporating is all it takes to say you are a pro. GTR2 is ONE series. They did not create the game engine. ISI did. Not having to create the game engine AND content cuts the workload way down. In case you didn't notice, they didn't buy the ISI net code. If they did, they'd have the best net code ever made, as opposed to what they have now. rFactor actually has more content than most sims. And there's still plenty more to come. More advanced weather implementation, more cars (Panoz), more tracks....... The CTDP F1 mod, F1 1979 mod, and a number of other so called amateurs have created better and certainly more accurate products than anything Papyrus or most other "pro" developers have ever charged us for. Again, please tell me how my floaty F1 car with no feedback, tires made of ice, and it's insistance on snap oversteer can do what it does on my computer but not on yours. -- David G Fisher

Well I agree with them two. I purchased rFactor (and asked to be reimbursed within 48 hours) and tried the GTR2 demo and I can echo their feeling. Also, I find all ISI based sims' graphics to be "grainy". Sure, the car models are pretty sweet, but I find it hard to make the track features/brake point out. The sound are pretty good. They just don't do it for me. I don't race with a gamepad (I have a TSW with high grade pots and USB interface) on a P133 either, just in case you asked ;) Mr. P Dave F wrote:

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> Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and say........it's > YOU. > > Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad > setups (or both). > > If the cars feel like they are on ice, or not connected to the road, or > there isn't enough feedback, it isn't the sim, it's you. This isn't a matter > of personal feel or agreeing to disagree, but it's somehting that can be > easily be proven. I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of the > fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. These F1 cars are > the perfect shoice to disprove what you claim because they have to be driven > exactly like the real drivers do in F1 or you lose massive amounts of time. > It is simply impossible to run a clean, realistic looking 118.3 at > Silverstone, 128.5 at Shakir, 111.4 at Montreal, 127.3 at Nuerburgring, or a > 129.2 at Suzuka without being extremely precise. My replays look as if the > car is on rails, and there is no wild sawwing back and forth at the wheel. > Smooth and precise, and the car looks GLUED to the road because it's taken > to the very limit, but never over. That's the only way you can be fast. GPL > style driving will get you absolutely nowhere. Never in a million years > could anyone look at one of my replays and say it looks like I'm driving on > ice. No one could ever come close to those times in these F1 cars if the car > felt loose, and with little feedback. Can't be done. The amount of feedback > I get from the car is massive. Any tiny change in the setup and I can > instantly feel it. > > Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in > replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say?? It's impossible. > > I don't know what wheels you use and what settings you've chosen in the > controller screen, but they've got to be wrong. The setups must be poor. > What's funny is that no one hates a loose feeling car more than me. If what > you guys say is true, I'd be the first one to delete rFactor from my hard > drive. > >

I liked that one two. But my TSW didn't: I never was able to configure the game correctly. I tried with a gamepad (gasp!) and it was still enjoyable. Mr P Vectrex wrote:

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> Richard Burns Rally is by far my favorite. It's intense and feels so > real it's scary. Its cheap now too. > Surprised noone mentioned Live For Speed, although I guess the cars and > tracks are mostly made up, but it's good online racing and it handles > better than any ISI physics IMHO, so assuming those cars DID exist it > would be realistic ;) >

You still have to set up the wheel correctly, and you still need the car set up correctly, or any sim will feel awful. You're sure you did this before you asked for a refund sometime in the first 48 hours after download? Sounds impossible. -- David G Fisher "Cowboy Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:f1Lch.32225$[email hidden]... > Well I agree with them two. I purchased rFactor (and asked to be > reimbursed within 48 hours) and tried the GTR2 demo and I can echo their > feeling. Also, I find all ISI based sims' graphics to be "grainy". Sure, > the car models are pretty sweet, but I find it hard to make the track > features/brake point out. The sound are pretty good. They just don't do it > for me. > > I don't race with a gamepad (I have a TSW with high grade pots and USB > interface) on a P133 either, just in case you asked ;) > > Mr. P > > Dave F wrote: >> Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and >> say........it's YOU. >> >> Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad >> setups (or both). >> >> If the cars feel like they are on ice, or not connected to the road, or >> there isn't enough feedback, it isn't the sim, it's you. This isn't a >> matter of personal feel or agreeing to disagree, but it's somehting that >> can be easily be proven. I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of >> the fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. These F1 >> cars are the perfect shoice to disprove what you claim because they have >> to be driven exactly like the real drivers do in F1 or you lose massive >> amounts of time. It is simply impossible to run a clean, realistic >> looking 118.3 at Silverstone, 128.5 at Shakir, 111.4 at Montreal, 127.3 >> at Nuerburgring, or a 129.2 at Suzuka without being extremely precise. My >> replays look as if the car is on rails, and there is no wild sawwing back >> and forth at the wheel. Smooth and precise, and the car looks GLUED to >> the road because it's taken to the very limit, but never over. That's the >> only way you can be fast. GPL style driving will get you absolutely >> nowhere. Never in a million years could anyone look at one of my replays >> and say it looks like I'm driving on ice. No one could ever come close to >> those times in these F1 cars if the car felt loose, and with little >> feedback. Can't be done. The amount of feedback I get from the car is >> massive. Any tiny change in the setup and I can instantly feel it. >> >> Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in >> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say?? It's impossible. >> >> I don't know what wheels you use and what settings you've chosen in the >> controller screen, but they've got to be wrong. The setups must be poor. >> What's funny is that no one hates a loose feeling car more than me. If >> what you guys say is true, I'd be the first one to delete rFactor from my >> hard drive. >>

I've set my wheel according to the guide on the TSW site. I think it was the graphics that caused the most pain... I tried again the GTR2 demo tonight, after posting, and I must admit I may have been wrong about the graphics. But I'm still unsure about the driving feeling. I may pick up the complete game: I've seen it in a store close to the office for 20$ CAN, which is pretty good! Dave F wrote:

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> You still have to set up the wheel correctly, and you still need the car set > up correctly, or any sim will feel awful. You're sure you did this before > you asked for a refund sometime in the first 48 hours after download? > > Sounds impossible. > >

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> >DHL??.....Why in hell would they do that? That leaves half of the rural US >having to drive to pick up the parcels. DHL doesn't deliver in my area >either. I have to drive 40mi to the terminal if something is shipped through >them...... Dumb move. > >Ed >

Yup, and they won't allow me to specify UPS or Fedex. They are on the is DHL kick now and I can't take it any more! I had a parcel cancelled and returned by DHL because I ordered it 2nd day because there was going to be no one home Thanksgiving week and I did not want the package to get damaged on my front porch by the winds, snow, and rain here in Montana! I am waiting for them to credit my credit card. Plus, I have to spend lots of time on the phone with DHL trying to track down the packages. Those idiots simply don't have a clue. They should be in another business! The last time I ordered 2nd day it was also shipped via DHL and about 4 business days later and an unmarked old white van with some homeless looking woman with missing teeth and unbrushed hair with a torn DHL shirt on showed up to deliver it! :-) -pw

On 3 Dec 2006 07:45:33 -0800, "Darus" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Do you know of a reputable place to purchase RBR in the US? I just >> checked Amazon and they offer a CD and DVD version (is it safe to >> purchase the DVD version?) from a few websites that I've never heard >> from. > > >www.gogamer.com is outstanding and, as I recall, ships via FedEx. > >That's where I got RBR

I am going to give them a try! Thanks! -pw

How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best...

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:30:27 -0500, "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and say........it's >YOU. Of course. >I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of the >fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. Well Dave, like the great philosopher S. Twain once said, 'That Don't Impress Me Much'. Yes, it might be a configuration problem, yes, I might suck driving ISI sims, but don't you think it's strange I always have the same problem with all the ISI based sims, with different computers/Windows versions, and using different controllers? BTW, I don't get a driving on ice feeling, it's more that the car behaves in a strange way. Losing grip at strange moments, just as if changes in tyre temperature do've more effect as it should have. And with the controller lag your reaction is too late, resulting in a slip/crash. I remember when GPL came out. You prefered the feel of Ubisoft F1RS above that of GPL. I guess we've to agree our taste differs. Cheers! Remco

On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:51:42 -0500, Chang Liu <[email hidden]> wrote: >How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best... what is CMR?

PW wrote:

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>>DHL??.....Why in hell would they do that? That leaves half of the rural US >>having to drive to pick up the parcels. DHL doesn't deliver in my area >>either. I have to drive 40mi to the terminal if something is shipped through >>them...... Dumb move. >> >>Ed >> > > > > Yup, and they won't allow me to specify UPS or Fedex. They are on the > is DHL kick now and I can't take it any more! I had a parcel > cancelled and returned by DHL because I ordered it 2nd day because > there was going to be no one home Thanksgiving week and I did not want > the package to get damaged on my front porch by the winds, snow, and > rain here in Montana! I am waiting for them to credit my credit card. > > Plus, I have to spend lots of time on the phone with DHL trying to > track down the packages. Those idiots simply don't have a clue. They > should be in another business! The last time I ordered 2nd day it was > also shipped via DHL and about 4 business days later and an unmarked > old white van with some homeless looking woman with missing teeth and > unbrushed hair with a torn DHL shirt on showed up to deliver it! :-)

Well, I guess you get what you pay for (I'm talking about the pay of DHL employees in the US). ronny

Dave F wrote: > Please answer the following question with something logical and factual, and > I'll quit sim racing forever. > > "Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in > replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say??" I have grown to really like the ISI engined sims from rFactor on, though I am not convinced by your argument. It was quite possible to create realistic looking replays in GPL, if you drove it in a conventioanl manner. Then again it was possible to drive it and be faster in a more sideways style than maybe realistic. As sims progress the latest and greatest get to "feel" like the real thing. I could never understand why non sim racers had so much trouble when they tried GPL on my racing rig. Because I had made the connection between screen and sound inputs (before FFB) and related them to driving a car. It takes some time to train the brain to replace the physical cues we get from real driving. IMHO it works differently for different people with different sims. Hence some get on with sims from one developer whilst others don't. Maybe enough time spent will make it work (the brain training). GPL had teh advantage of being pretty much better than everything (multiplayer, sound, AI etc.) so people would train to get used to it. With a wider variety of non ISI based sims (LFS, NKPro, RBR, NR2003) which might feel more right to someone there is less incentive to train to get used to another sim, just wait for one of the other developers to release something new). I am sure an LFS fan could equally create superbly realistic replays and feel convinced this is closest to the real thing as the connection between sim and real racing works for them. Some sims we can discard as arcade rubbish, but right now choosing between LFS, GTR2, rFactor, RBR etc. comes down to personal feel and I am not convinced there is a right answer as to which is best. Whichever convinces us the moving images, sound and FFB relate to our real life driving experiences and perception of driving race cars we have never (and unlikely to) driven. Cheers Tony

Nah, it's not me. I read enough of the same complaint all over to know it's not just me. -Larry "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and > say........it's YOU. > > Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad > setups (or both). > > If the cars feel like they are on ice, or not connected to the road, or > there isn't enough feedback, it isn't the sim, it's you. This isn't a > matter of personal feel or agreeing to disagree, but it's somehting that > can be easily be proven. I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of > the fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. These F1 cars > are the perfect shoice to disprove what you claim because they have to be > driven exactly like the real drivers do in F1 or you lose massive amounts > of time. It is simply impossible to run a clean, realistic looking 118.3 > at Silverstone, 128.5 at Shakir, 111.4 at Montreal, 127.3 at Nuerburgring, > or a 129.2 at Suzuka without being extremely precise. My replays look as > if the car is on rails, and there is no wild sawwing back and forth at the > wheel. Smooth and precise, and the car looks GLUED to the road because > it's taken to the very limit, but never over. That's the only way you can > be fast. GPL style driving will get you absolutely nowhere. Never in a > million years could anyone look at one of my replays and say it looks like > I'm driving on ice. No one could ever come close to those times in these > F1 cars if the car felt loose, and with little feedback. Can't be done. > The amount of feedback I get from the car is massive. Any tiny change in > the setup and I can instantly feel it. > > Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in > replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say?? It's impossible. > > I don't know what wheels you use and what settings you've chosen in the > controller screen, but they've got to be wrong. The setups must be poor. > What's funny is that no one hates a loose feeling car more than me. If > what you guys say is true, I'd be the first one to delete rFactor from my > hard drive. > > > -- > David G Fisher > > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:A_Hch.29$[email hidden]... >> 100% agreement on the ISI comments. I think you nailed it perfectly. >> >> -Larry >> >> "Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> >>> 1. GPL >>> The physics are a bit outdated, but the game is so well balanced. >>> It still has the finest cockpits/carmodels to date, IMO, thanks to >>> guys like the GPLEA. If you want to win from the AI, you've to work >>> for it, it took me months to win a race. Still playable online, and >>> mods are available for other F1 years, with 'corrected' physics. >>> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/gameplay/replays. >>> >>> 2. RBR >>> It really gives you a feeling like you're driving a rally car. You >>> notice how fast you're driving, and I'm often scared of the speed, >>> feeling the need to lift. Not easy. The only downside is the fact you >>> don't race others, which got me bored after a while, once I knew the >>> stages. >>> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/replays, less on gameplay after >>> a while >>> >>> 3. >>> ISI based sims (GTL/GTR2/rFactor) >>> I always have an hate/love relation with ISI based sims. The graphics >>> are great and still there is so much lacking. You can have great >>> dynamic lightning, shadows, cool refections on the car, and stuff like >>> that, but what's the point if the car doesn't seem to be connected to >>> the road? >>> >>> The fact that the replay system isn't that nice doesn't help much >>> eighter. Online you don't see the suspension move of your opponents, >>> and the tyre smoke doesn't feel realistic. >>> >>> The physics feel nice with a better tyremodel than GPL, but I've >>> always the feeling the car floats. It doesn't help that the controller >>> lags a bit. I also don't like the way the brakes behave when the disc >>> is hot, it's too much an on/off switch. >>> >>> The AI is bad (rFactor), or not realistic(GTR2/GTL). They match their >>> speed on your pace, I always hate that. They also do things which >>> would get your licence pulled in real life. I don't like racing them. >>> I also don't like it you've to earn the cars, not all of us do've the >>> time to race severall hours a day to get the credits. >>> >>> Online is a mixed bag. I only played rfactor online, and the problem >>> is that there are too many mods to get a lot of drivers using the mod >>> you like. Since there're so many mods, the quality of drivers is too >>> wide spread, with a small chance of racing a group of drivers evenly >>> matched. >>> >>> So, what is the love part then... :-) It's the immersion when you're >>> driving a car like the Saleen in GTR2 through Eau Rouge, it's the >>> sound, it's the modelling of weather, it's the F1 1979 Mod on Kyalami, >>> and it's the idea that all the problems I have could be fixed easily >>> with the next patch...but the latter thing is true for years with the >>> ISI sims, allthough I keep hoping. >>> Great on sound, mixed feelings with the rest. >>> >>> 4. >>> LFS >>> This is a good online racer, with decent >>> graphics/sounds/physics/replays and stuff. However, the mentallity >>> of other drivers is what kills it for me. I always compare it with >>> Quake on wheels, always expecting an headshot when exiting a turn. >>> Offline the AI is too dull, the same goes for the tracks. >>> Nice on Graphics/Sound/Physics/Replays, mixed feeling about gameplay. >>> >>> 5. >>> NetKar Pro >>> Driving a car in Netkar Pro, if you can get the car started :-/, is >>> the most realistic experience in a sim I have. The latest patch dumbed >>> it down somewhat (Grrr BRD), but it's still a great feeling. >>> Graphics/Sound/Physics, all great. But then, the gameplay...what >>> gameplay? There is no AI, no filled servers online. The only gameplay >>> there is, is an online league, but that doesn't help if it doesn't fit >>> your schedule. >>> >>> It might improve someday, who knows... >>> Great on graphics/sound/physics, mediocre on replays, no gameplay. >>> >>> >>> Well, this is my top 5, for what's worth... >>> >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Remco >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > >

Dave F wrote:

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> You still have to set up the wheel correctly, and you still need the car set > up correctly, or any sim will feel awful. You're sure you did this before > you asked for a refund sometime in the first 48 hours after download? > > Sounds impossible. > >

Methinks you guys are overthinking this. How many of you have actually driven REAL race cars on real tracks? I've driven a Busch type car at Lowe's, and have a dirt track "bomber" Camaro. My street car is a nitrous sniffing Trans Am (let's just say it's got some grip...) That said, I remember being about ready to pitch the GPL CD out the window, and still can't brake properly in LFS without swapping ends in the rwd car in the demo. Because these are SIMULATIONS of the real thing, they won't be 100% accurate. And even if they were, being able to drive a 67 F1 car doesn't necessarily prepare you to draft at Daytona or drive an sprint car sideways for 100 laps. What is a perfectly accurate model of an F1 car for some people is not for others, and even if it was a perfect model, it would still drive like crap to others. Relax and enjoy the diversity. And thanks to all who gave suggestions. :) Ray

Dave F wrote: > Please answer the following question with something logical and factual, and > I'll quit sim racing forever. > > "Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in > replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say??" Because you're using a driving style that works for the sim. You've mentioned being smooth without sawing away at the wheel like people do in GPL, yet if you look at half the guys on the grid in F1 they're anything but smooth. If you tried to use a technique like Schumacher does in any ISI open wheeled sim that I've tried, i.e. early throttle application and using the wheel to keep the car on the edge of the traction circle, I doubt you could make it through 2 corners without losing the rear of the car. I can drive F1C and rFactor just fine if I try to drive overly smoothly, but that's not my style. A good sim, regardless of the subjective "realism" factor, should be able to cater to a diversity of styles just as real cars do. Not everyone drives an F1 car like Prost, but his style is pretty much the only one that works in ISI open wheelers.

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:24_ch.11666$[email hidden]...

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> Dave F wrote: > >> Please answer the following question with something logical and factual, >> and I'll quit sim racing forever. >> >> "Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in >> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say??" > > I have grown to really like the ISI engined sims from rFactor on, though I > am not convinced by your argument. It was quite possible to create > realistic looking replays in GPL, if you drove it in a conventioanl > manner. Then again it was possible to drive it and be faster in a more > sideways style than maybe realistic.

I think you misread my post. Yes, you could make realistic looking replays with GPL if you held back a bit (true of almost every sim), but you had to drive the GPL cars in an unrealistic manner to post the very fastest times. That's what was wrong with the sim. With rFactor/CTDP F1, the lap times I mentioned in my first post are as fast as you'll find anywhere (legit laps--no cutting--two wheels on proper curbing) but had to be done in a realistic manner or were impossible to achieve. The opposite of GPL. Claims that the game enginge is flawed resutling in the cars feeling like they are on ice or offers poor feedback resulting in unpredicatability are silly. Jason uses an avatar at RSC that says "CareFactor/Install/Snap Oversteer/Uninstall". Ridiculous.

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> As sims progress the latest and greatest get to "feel" like the real > thing. I could never understand why non sim racers had so much trouble > when they tried GPL on my racing rig. Because I had made the connection > between screen and sound inputs (before FFB) and related them to driving a > car. It takes some time to train the brain to replace the physical cues we > get from real driving. > > IMHO it works differently for different people with different sims. Hence > some get on with sims from one developer whilst others don't. Maybe enough > time spent will make it work (the brain training). GPL had teh advantage > of being pretty much better than everything (multiplayer, sound, AI etc.) > so people would train to get used to it. With a wider variety of non ISI > based sims (LFS, NKPro, RBR, NR2003) which might feel more right to > someone there is less incentive to train to get used to another sim, just > wait for one of the other developers to release something new). > > I am sure an LFS fan could equally create superbly realistic replays and > feel convinced this is closest to the real thing as the connection between > sim and real racing works for them. > > Some sims we can discard as arcade rubbish, but right now choosing between > LFS, GTR2, rFactor, RBR etc. comes down to personal feel and I am not > convinced there is a right answer as to which is best. Whichever convinces > us the moving images, sound and FFB relate to our real life driving > experiences and perception of driving race cars we have never (and > unlikely to) driven. > > Cheers > Tony

This really isn't about which sim "feels right" to someone. It's about disproving claims by some that the game engine is somehow flawed. If these claims were true, then my lap times in the F1 cars, and the way the were achieved, wouldn't be possible. They haven't set up their wheels correctly, are probably using crap setups, and I'd guess they aren't really trying very hard to train themselves (as you mentioned) because they really don't want to stray from their favorite developers.....if you know what I mean. -- David G Fisher

I didn't say it's JUST you, I said....it's you.....not the sim. Big difference. You and any the others who have these complaints aren't doing something right, but are blaming the sim instead of correcting the mistake. A 129.2 at Suzuka in CTDP F1 is simply impossible if the game engine forces the cars to be loose at the limit. -- David G Fisher "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Wp_ch.41249$[email hidden]... > Nah, it's not me. I read enough of the same complaint all over to know > it's not just me. > > -Larry > > "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and >> say........it's YOU. >> >> Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad >> setups (or both). >> >> If the cars feel like they are on ice, or not connected to the road, or >> there isn't enough feedback, it isn't the sim, it's you. This isn't a >> matter of personal feel or agreeing to disagree, but it's somehting that >> can be easily be proven. I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of >> the fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. These F1 >> cars are the perfect shoice to disprove what you claim because they have >> to be driven exactly like the real drivers do in F1 or you lose massive >> amounts of time. It is simply impossible to run a clean, realistic >> looking 118.3 at Silverstone, 128.5 at Shakir, 111.4 at Montreal, 127.3 >> at Nuerburgring, or a 129.2 at Suzuka without being extremely precise. My >> replays look as if the car is on rails, and there is no wild sawwing back >> and forth at the wheel. Smooth and precise, and the car looks GLUED to >> the road because it's taken to the very limit, but never over. That's the >> only way you can be fast. GPL style driving will get you absolutely >> nowhere. Never in a million years could anyone look at one of my replays >> and say it looks like I'm driving on ice. No one could ever come close to >> those times in these F1 cars if the car felt loose, and with little >> feedback. Can't be done. The amount of feedback I get from the car is >> massive. Any tiny change in the setup and I can instantly feel it. >> >> Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in >> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say?? It's impossible. >> >> I don't know what wheels you use and what settings you've chosen in the >> controller screen, but they've got to be wrong. The setups must be poor. >> What's funny is that no one hates a loose feeling car more than me. If >> what you guys say is true, I'd be the first one to delete rFactor from my >> hard drive. >> >> >> -- >> David G Fisher >> >> >> >> >> "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:A_Hch.29$[email hidden]... >>> 100% agreement on the ISI comments. I think you nailed it perfectly. >>> >>> -Larry >>> >>> "Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:[email hidden]... >>> >>>> 1. GPL >>>> The physics are a bit outdated, but the game is so well balanced. >>>> It still has the finest cockpits/carmodels to date, IMO, thanks to >>>> guys like the GPLEA. If you want to win from the AI, you've to work >>>> for it, it took me months to win a race. Still playable online, and >>>> mods are available for other F1 years, with 'corrected' physics. >>>> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/gameplay/replays. >>>> >>>> 2. RBR >>>> It really gives you a feeling like you're driving a rally car. You >>>> notice how fast you're driving, and I'm often scared of the speed, >>>> feeling the need to lift. Not easy. The only downside is the fact you >>>> don't race others, which got me bored after a while, once I knew the >>>> stages. >>>> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/replays, less on gameplay after >>>> a while >>>> >>>> 3. >>>> ISI based sims (GTL/GTR2/rFactor) >>>> I always have an hate/love relation with ISI based sims. The graphics >>>> are great and still there is so much lacking. You can have great >>>> dynamic lightning, shadows, cool refections on the car, and stuff like >>>> that, but what's the point if the car doesn't seem to be connected to >>>> the road? >>>> >>>> The fact that the replay system isn't that nice doesn't help much >>>> eighter. Online you don't see the suspension move of your opponents, >>>> and the tyre smoke doesn't feel realistic. >>>> >>>> The physics feel nice with a better tyremodel than GPL, but I've >>>> always the feeling the car floats. It doesn't help that the controller >>>> lags a bit. I also don't like the way the brakes behave when the disc >>>> is hot, it's too much an on/off switch. >>>> >>>> The AI is bad (rFactor), or not realistic(GTR2/GTL). They match their >>>> speed on your pace, I always hate that. They also do things which >>>> would get your licence pulled in real life. I don't like racing them. >>>> I also don't like it you've to earn the cars, not all of us do've the >>>> time to race severall hours a day to get the credits. >>>> >>>> Online is a mixed bag. I only played rfactor online, and the problem >>>> is that there are too many mods to get a lot of drivers using the mod >>>> you like. Since there're so many mods, the quality of drivers is too >>>> wide spread, with a small chance of racing a group of drivers evenly >>>> matched. >>>> >>>> So, what is the love part then... :-) It's the immersion when you're >>>> driving a car like the Saleen in GTR2 through Eau Rouge, it's the >>>> sound, it's the modelling of weather, it's the F1 1979 Mod on Kyalami, >>>> and it's the idea that all the problems I have could be fixed easily >>>> with the next patch...but the latter thing is true for years with the >>>> ISI sims, allthough I keep hoping. >>>> Great on sound, mixed feelings with the rest. >>>> >>>> 4. >>>> LFS >>>> This is a good online racer, with decent >>>> graphics/sounds/physics/replays and stuff. However, the mentallity >>>> of other drivers is what kills it for me. I always compare it with >>>> Quake on wheels, always expecting an headshot when exiting a turn. >>>> Offline the AI is too dull, the same goes for the tracks. >>>> Nice on Graphics/Sound/Physics/Replays, mixed feeling about gameplay. >>>> >>>> 5. >>>> NetKar Pro >>>> Driving a car in Netkar Pro, if you can get the car started :-/, is >>>> the most realistic experience in a sim I have. The latest patch dumbed >>>> it down somewhat (Grrr BRD), but it's still a great feeling. >>>> Graphics/Sound/Physics, all great. But then, the gameplay...what >>>> gameplay? There is no AI, no filled servers online. The only gameplay >>>> there is, is an online league, but that doesn't help if it doesn't fit >>>> your schedule. >>>> >>>> It might improve someday, who knows... >>>> Great on graphics/sound/physics, mediocre on replays, no gameplay. >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, this is my top 5, for what's worth... >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers! >>>> >>>> Remco >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >

"Remco Moedt" <no@email> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:30:27 -0500, "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and >>say........it's >>YOU. > > Of course. > >>I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of the >>fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. > > Well Dave, like the great philosopher S. Twain once said, > 'That Don't Impress Me Much'.

Of course. >Yes, it might be a configuration > problem, yes, I might suck driving ISI sims, but don't you think it's > strange I always have the same problem with all the ISI based sims, > with different computers/Windows versions, and using different > controllers? Not if you go about solving the problem in the same way each time.

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> BTW, I don't get a driving on ice feeling, it's more that the car > behaves in a strange way. Losing grip at strange moments, just as if > changes in tyre temperature do've more effect as it should have. And > with the controller lag your reaction is too late, resulting in a > slip/crash. > > I remember when GPL came out. You prefered the feel of Ubisoft F1RS > above that of GPL. I guess we've to agree our taste differs. > > Cheers! > > Remco

Everything I said about GPL was confirmed by Kaemmer himself four years ago when he said the cars had unrealistic grip, and that he had stopped playing the sim because of it's flaws. -- David G Fisher

A good point actually, but in a different way. GPL is HARD to drive. But it's becuase the CARS are hard to drive. It's the way it is. The lack of traction is inherent in the car itself. But, I can still understand what the car is doing, and it feels right to me. The ISI sims are different. The cars don't always do what I think they should be doing, and the grip I think I should be having isn't there. Or, maybe better put, isn't transmitted to me very well. I don't know. Just feels icy to me. It's been like that in every single ISI sim I've ever driven, except, oddly, SCGT. I had no issues with that one. In the old F1 games, it always felt to me like the car was pivoting on a point midway between the driver and the front tires. I don't notice that _as much_ in rFactor and GTR2, but I still note a bit of it. Again, GTR2 feels the best to me so far. I have no idea why. I'll take hits for this from the Papy Haters, but I don't care. To me, no one has accomplished the relaying of grip and what the car is doing better than Papy. I'm not talking about the amount of grip, I'm talking about the relaying of grip to the driver of the Sim. I still believe the FF in NR2003 sucks though :( Somehow that goodness never made it over from GPL :( For example, in NR2003 at a track like Texas, Charlotte, Atlanta, etc... where you really lean on and steer the car on the RR tire, I can instantly tell when I've crossed the line and the rear is starting to step out. I can then feather the throttle just right to stop the slide but yet not lose any more time than necessary. Not that I don't screw it up from time to time :) -Larry "news" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6q_ch.3906$[email hidden]...

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> Methinks you guys are overthinking this. > > How many of you have actually driven REAL race cars on real tracks? > I've driven a Busch type car at Lowe's, and have a dirt track "bomber" > Camaro. My street car is a nitrous sniffing Trans Am (let's just say it's > got some grip...) > > That said, I remember being about ready to pitch the GPL CD out the > window, and still can't brake properly in LFS without swapping ends in the > rwd car in the demo. > > Because these are SIMULATIONS of the real thing, they won't be 100% > accurate. And even if they were, being able to drive a 67 F1 car doesn't > necessarily prepare you to draft at Daytona or drive an sprint car > sideways for 100 laps. > > What is a perfectly accurate model of an F1 car for some people is not for > others, and even if it was a perfect model, it would still drive like crap > to others. > > Relax and enjoy the diversity. > > And thanks to all who gave suggestions. :) > > Ray

Dave F wrote: > Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and say........it's > YOU. > > Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad > setups (or both). > When I tried GTR2, I also had the feeling that the car wasn't connected to the road. This doesn't necessarily mean lack of grip, but just that your movements with the steering wheel didn't correspond with their expected effects. I found that by playing around with the speed sensitivity and steering rate, I was able to get a good feel though. So yes, setting up the wheel does make a huge difference. On the other hand, I am still dismayed that you should have to set up the wheel like this. I only have limited circuit racing experience, so the fact that I don't know how a Ferrari Maranello should feel exactly around Spa, suggests that when I tweak the controls myself it likely isn't quite right. This is something the game designers should be doing based on experience with the actual car. It may be that the tweaking of the controls is necessary as different models of steering wheels vary importantly in their characteristics. I also wonder how many "sim" racers know what they are doing in terms of the feel of the cars. The first force-feedback wheel I tried years ago was just awful. Last year I bought a logitech momo force due to the rave reviews, thinking that the technology had finally come of age. I expected to be able to just plug it in, and it would be about right. Instead, it was *completely* unrealistic. Firstly, the load when turning the wheel was the same whether you where turning from dead center, or at full lock. With a real car, the steering will load up as you turn the wheel more and more, and there will be little if any resistance when making small turns. Also, the resistance of the momo force was in turning the wheel, and once it was turned, you could hold it at the given amount of lock and there would be practically no load at all, ie, load was related to turning the wheel. On the other hand, in a real car, the load is generated by the angle of the wheel as this is generating the cornering forces. Despite this, you would hear lots of people on the sim newsgroup saying how great the force-feedback wheels are - so I wonder just how much experience these drivers have of real cars.

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:40:20 -0500, "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Remco Moedt" <no@email> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:30:27 -0500, "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote: >>>I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of the >>>fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. >> >> Well Dave, like the great philosopher S. Twain once said, >> 'That Don't Impress Me Much'. > >Of course.

For the record, I meant that being fast doesn't mean your opinion is worth more then someone who isn't that fast. I do respect the fact you're fast, though.

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>>Yes, it might be a configuration >> problem, yes, I might suck driving ISI sims, but don't you think it's >> strange I always have the same problem with all the ISI based sims, >> with different computers/Windows versions, and using different >> controllers? > >Not if you go about solving the problem in the same way each time.

I've had a long correspondence with the ISI guys about my controller problems, up to the point that they told me how they coded it. It didn't help...

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>> BTW, I don't get a driving on ice feeling, it's more that the car >> behaves in a strange way. Losing grip at strange moments, just as if >> changes in tyre temperature do've more effect as it should have. And >> with the controller lag your reaction is too late, resulting in a >> slip/crash. >> >> I remember when GPL came out. You prefered the feel of Ubisoft F1RS >> above that of GPL. I guess we've to agree our taste differs. > >Everything I said about GPL was confirmed by Kaemmer himself four years ago >when he said the cars had unrealistic grip, and that he had stopped playing >the sim because of it's flaws.

Well, yes. Not that the grip (or physics) in F1RS were that good. But like I said in my original post, I do agree that the physics/tyre model in rFactor/GTR2/GTL are better than in GPL. It just doesn't translate that well to my brain. I also must add that I don't care for modern F1 cars, I don't know if you also drive the slower cars in rFactor. Anyway, this thread wasn't about which sim is the best, it's which sim you like the most. Cheers! Remco

Dave F wrote:

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> This really isn't about which sim "feels right" to someone. It's about > disproving claims by some that the game engine is somehow flawed. If these > claims were true, then my lap times in the F1 cars, and the way the were > achieved, wouldn't be possible. They haven't set up their wheels correctly, > are probably using crap setups, and I'd guess they aren't really trying very > hard to train themselves (as you mentioned) because they really don't want > to stray from their favorite developers.....if you know what I mean.

Maybe there is a "hidden agenda" but the earlier posts were from people who simply didn't get the feel with ISI engined sims. rFactor was the first that changed the feel for me. The F1 series all had that unexplained lack of connectivity for me but I know others loved it, whilst others seemed to find rFactor made little difference. I do think Papy have the best track record for out of the box controller settings, whilst ISI sims so often need tweaking and if the driver doesn't hit on the right settings early enough then interest may have already drifted elsewhere. Cheers Tony

Remco Moedt wrote:

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> Anyway, this thread wasn't about which sim is the best, it's which sim > you like the most. > > Cheers! > > Remco >

well, it was originally about finding some good sims for my co-worker to try out his new toy on... and I've been not gaming for some time, so I was looking to see if the state of the art had changed a lot since I last played... That said, for all the guys who love/hate a certain sim because of how it feels, it may be YOU or it may be the game or the way the car is modeled. The first time I actually drove my Camaro on the dirt track, I was surprised just how ungodly rough it was - I was expecting "mud" to be squishy and sploshy, it was like driving a 3 ton truck over big rocks at 60 mph. And when I drove at Lowe's back in 2000 at the RPDE, it actually felt a LOT like NASCAR2, to the point where I felt I could easily handle another 20-30mph on top of the 143 I turned. (no telling how I'd do in traffic though...) It's ok to suck at certain types of race cars. Modeled correctly isn't necesarrily modeled fast or easy. I do wonder if the cars in GPL were evil handling witches like that in real life. I recommend getting as much real life racing time as possible, even if it's just in gokarts. AS much fun as sim racing is, it's just not real. It is cheaper tho, even with $250 steering wheels. I've gone through 4 engines in 3 years. (overheat, oil pan damage, bent crank, oil pressure) Ray

Mark, You had something wrong in the wheel setup. It shouldn't have felt like that at all. None of the FF wheels I've owned work the way you describe. They load up realistically. All this depends on the FF settings, though. ISI had a lot of variables buried in .INI files. You can completely change the feel of the FF by messing around in those files. Pat Dotson Mark wrote:

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> I also wonder how many "sim" racers know what they are doing in terms of > the feel of the cars. The first force-feedback wheel I tried years ago > was just awful. Last year I bought a logitech momo force due to the rave > reviews, thinking that the technology had finally come of age. I > expected to be able to just plug it in, and it would be about right. > Instead, it was *completely* unrealistic. Firstly, the load when turning > the wheel was the same whether you where turning from dead center, or at > full lock. With a real car, the steering will load up as you turn the > wheel more and more, and there will be little if any resistance when > making small turns. Also, the resistance of the momo force was in > turning the wheel, and once it was turned, you could hold it at the > given amount of lock and there would be practically no load at all, ie, > load was related to turning the wheel. On the other hand, in a real car, > the load is generated by the angle of the wheel as this is generating > the cornering forces. Despite this, you would hear lots of people on the > sim newsgroup saying how great the force-feedback wheels are - so I > wonder just how much experience these drivers have of real cars.

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:52:01 -0500, "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I'll take hits for this from the Papy Haters, but I don't care. To me, no >one has accomplished the relaying of grip and what the car is doing better >than Papy. I'm not talking about the amount of grip, I'm talking about the >relaying of grip to the driver of the Sim. I still believe the FF in NR2003 >sucks though :( Somehow that goodness never made it over from GPL :( > >For example, in NR2003 at a track like Texas, Charlotte, Atlanta, etc... >where you really lean on and steer the car on the RR tire, I can instantly >tell when I've crossed the line and the rear is starting to step out. I can >then feather the throttle just right to stop the slide but yet not lose any >more time than necessary. >

I'll point out that NR2003 is more than just one physics set where everyone runs ovals-the GTP mod, which hardly anyone has played other than the few people who bought NR2003 when it first came out, has a completely different physics set-yet I can still feel via the FF what each wheel is doing and adjust instantly. I can feel when the fronts are out of shape and about to lose grip, when the rears are getting loose, etc. The FF in the ISI sims feels anemic to me by comparison. And if I have to endlessly fart around with various settings in and out of the .ini files to get the right feel, well the hell with that. John D

PW wrote:

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> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:51:42 -0500, Chang Liu > <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best... > > what is CMR? >

Colin McRae Rally.

On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:08:18 -0500, Chang Liu <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>PW wrote: >> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:51:42 -0500, Chang Liu >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >>> How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best... >> >> what is CMR? >> >Colin McRae Rally.

Oh Well, I ordered any way from GoGamer and it's on it's way. I'm sure I will have some fun with it. Thanks, -pw

Seriously, get Richard Burns Rally while you're at it. They are different games, CMR is fun, which at first I couldn't say RBR was 'fun' exactly, but the smile on my face was mainly to do with how real it felt and how unforgiving it was :) Basically if you try and play it without doing the rally school section they warn you because it really doesn't dumb it down one bit. CMR the roads are wide and it's very easy, in RBR the roads are crazy thin and the damage model is brutal (thankfully you can turn it off). Put it this way, it took me a long time before I could make it through a single stage without rolling and smashing even down a straight road! :) While this makes it sound annoying it's not, because when you're going fast it actually feels as fast as it should. Whereas CMR you're going flat out all the time with no danger so there's no seat of the pants feeling, good to play while eating a sandwich though :) Btw CMR 1 still has the best in cockpit view ever. PW wrote:

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> On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:08:18 -0500, Chang Liu > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >PW wrote: > >> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:51:42 -0500, Chang Liu > >> <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> > >>> How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best... > >> > >> what is CMR? > >> > >Colin McRae Rally. > > > Oh Well, I ordered any way from GoGamer and it's on it's way. I'm > sure I will have some fun with it. > > Thanks, > > -pw

As for FF, I think the only game I've played who's FF actually felt real and truly enhances the game is Richard Burns Rally. I'm still amazed by it, I feel completely connected to the road surface. rFactor's is terrible, LFS is ok and worth having but still not great. In RBR the only thing that ruins it a bit is my MOMO simply can't turn fast enough without the FF motors 'biting'. I had a go on a G25 and that thing can spin flat out so I can't wait to try RBR with a G25. Mark wrote:

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> I also wonder how many "sim" racers know what they are doing in terms of > the feel of the cars. The first force-feedback wheel I tried years ago > was just awful. Last year I bought a logitech momo force due to the rave > reviews, thinking that the technology had finally come of age. I > expected to be able to just plug it in, and it would be about right. > Instead, it was *completely* unrealistic. Firstly, the load when turning > the wheel was the same whether you where turning from dead center, or at > full lock. With a real car, the steering will load up as you turn the > wheel more and more, and there will be little if any resistance when > making small turns. Also, the resistance of the momo force was in > turning the wheel, and once it was turned, you could hold it at the > given amount of lock and there would be practically no load at all, ie, > load was related to turning the wheel. On the other hand, in a real car, > the load is generated by the angle of the wheel as this is generating > the cornering forces. Despite this, you would hear lots of people on the > sim newsgroup saying how great the force-feedback wheels are - so I > wonder just how much experience these drivers have of real cars.

Dave F enlightened us with:

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> I didn't say it's JUST you, I said....it's you.....not the sim. Big > difference. > > You and any the others who have these complaints aren't doing > something right, but are blaming the sim instead of correcting the > mistake. A 129.2 at Suzuka in CTDP F1 is simply impossible if the > game engine forces the cars to be loose at the limit. >

<<<politely snipped>>> BULLLLLLLLshit. that makes about as much sense as saying you are fast in Mario Cart. that has little to do with the sim coding/behavior as well, you've learned (or unlearned) how to cope with shortcomings that the rest of us dummies cant (apparently), and you DONT think it is the sim? For arguements sake, my son can kick all our asses on playstation games, yet cant turn a lap above half throttle in realistic sims on the PC. He's 12, and has about 10 hours of country road REAL automobile driving experience (not alone but with me in there). He can drive the shit out of GT3, and Need for speeds and ATV vs MX LOL, but I dont plan to sleep while he is driving. Gaming reflexes don't mean driving reflexes neither IMHO.

Larry wrote: > Gogaming (or gogamer, i forget) .com. I got it there for like $20, and it > came on a single DVD in a snap-case, no copy protection I'm aware of, and > doesn't require the disc to be inserted to play. The game shipped with copy protection which was removed in a patch after the initial buying period. I wish more companies would follow SCI's example, especially considering that copy protection companies (even Starforce of all people) recommend removing the protection once the initial heavy sales period has concluded.

Mine actually came with it removed. No key or anything. -Larry "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Larry wrote: >> Gogaming (or gogamer, i forget) .com. I got it there for like $20, and >> it >> came on a single DVD in a snap-case, no copy protection I'm aware of, and >> doesn't require the disc to be inserted to play. > > The game shipped with copy protection which was removed in a patch > after the initial buying period. I wish more companies would follow > SCI's example, especially considering that copy protection companies > (even Starforce of all people) recommend removing the protection once > the initial heavy sales period has concluded. >

On 7 Dec 2006 06:36:19 -0800, "Vectrex" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Seriously, get Richard Burns Rally while you're at it. That is the one I ordered. Don't know how we got on the subject of CMR. I guess I screwed up. -pw

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> They are >different games, CMR is fun, which at first I couldn't say RBR was >'fun' exactly, but the smile on my face was mainly to do with how real >it felt and how unforgiving it was :) Basically if you try and play it >without doing the rally school section they warn you because it really >doesn't dumb it down one bit. CMR the roads are wide and it's very >easy, in RBR the roads are crazy thin and the damage model is brutal >(thankfully you can turn it off). Put it this way, it took me a long >time before I could make it through a single stage without rolling and >smashing even down a straight road! :) While this makes it sound >annoying it's not, because when you're going fast it actually feels as >fast as it should. Whereas CMR you're going flat out all the time with >no danger so there's no seat of the pants feeling, good to play while >eating a sandwich though :) >Btw CMR 1 still has the best in cockpit view ever. > >PW wrote: >> On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:08:18 -0500, Chang Liu >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >PW wrote: >> >> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:51:42 -0500, Chang Liu >> >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >> >>> How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best... >> >> >> >> what is CMR? >> >> >> >Colin McRae Rally. >> >> >> Oh Well, I ordered any way from GoGamer and it's on it's way. I'm >> sure I will have some fun with it. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -pw

No ever mentioned mobil 1 rally- an EA release from 2000; very advanced for it's time; exciting and immersive gameplay and really a lot of fun. I know it didn't sell well, but I'm sure someone here has tried it and care to offer an opinion on it.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Dave F wrote: > >> Please answer the following question with something logical and factual, >> and >> I'll quit sim racing forever. >> >> "Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in >> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say??" > > Because you're using a driving style that works for the sim. You've > mentioned being smooth without sawing away at the wheel like people do > in GPL, yet if you look at half the guys on the grid in F1 they're > anything but smooth. If you tried to use a technique like Schumacher > does in any ISI open wheeled sim that I've tried, i.e. early throttle > application and using the wheel to keep the car on the edge of the > traction circle, I doubt you could make it through 2 corners without > losing the rear of the car. I can drive F1C and rFactor just fine if I > try to drive overly smoothly, but that's not my style. A good sim, > regardless of the subjective "realism" factor, should be able to cater > to a diversity of styles just as real cars do. Not everyone drives an > F1 car like Prost, but his style is pretty much the only one that works > in ISI open wheelers.

When I say "smooth", I'm referring to how the car appears to a spectator. No one saws at the wheel in real F1 like we would in GPL. Depending on the circumstances (track/corner/chicane/cold tires/hot tires/worn tires) there are times when I have to really work the wheel like F1 drivers sometimes have to do. As for Schumacher's techinique that you described, that's exactly how I drive. I brake deep into a corner and then early throttle. Often overlappling the two. If I make a mistake and the rear end kicks out, I can pull it back. Even when the car goes into a full slide, it can sometimes be saved. No difference from the real thing. Other types of cars require a different approach to the F1 cars and I have no problem with them either. I ran the Megane mod at R.A.C.E.R. recently and mistakenly chose the wrong ff option in the upgrades section. The car felt disconnected from the road, and I was 2 seconds off the pace at WG Long. Later I went back and changed the setting and the car felt great and I found those two seconds and a little bit more immediately. It was MY fault that the car didn't feel right and I was struggling, not the sim. Whatever is necessary, the sim allows it. Thousands of others agree apparently. The only place I've read these complaints are here at r.a.s. by the same handful of guys who've always said the same thing about ISI sims. I race at R.A.C.E.R. and we just completed an F1 season. 20 drivers on the grid, 10 team owners and at least 15 test drivers. About 45 alltogether, and never once did anyone ever say they were struggling with the car and try to blame it on the sim. My teammate and I both used the same setups, but he uses a non-force feedback wheel and I use a DFP, and yet our results are close to identical. -- David G Fisher

"Plowboy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ReWdh.7693$[email hidden]...

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> > > Dave F enlightened us with: >> I didn't say it's JUST you, I said....it's you.....not the sim. Big >> difference. >> >> You and any the others who have these complaints aren't doing >> something right, but are blaming the sim instead of correcting the >> mistake. A 129.2 at Suzuka in CTDP F1 is simply impossible if the >> game engine forces the cars to be loose at the limit. >> > <<<politely snipped>>> > > BULLLLLLLLshit. > that makes about as much sense as saying you are fast in Mario Cart. that > has little to do with the sim coding/behavior as well, you've learned (or > unlearned) how to cope with shortcomings that the rest of us dummies cant > (apparently), and you DONT think it is the sim? > > For arguements sake, my son can kick all our asses on playstation games, > yet cant turn a lap above half throttle in realistic sims on the PC. He's > 12, and has about 10 hours of country road REAL automobile driving > experience (not alone but with me in there). He can drive the shit out of > GT3, and Need for speeds and ATV vs MX LOL, but I dont plan to sleep while > he is driving. > > Gaming reflexes don't mean driving reflexes neither IMHO.

Funny post, doesn't relate to me at all, but it's amusing. BTW, you seem to think you are somehow speaking for all serious sim drivers, but you are not. An awful lot of top sim drivers are running this sim and praising it. Maybe they should switch over to Mario Cart. -- David G Fisher

[email hidden] wrote: > No ever mentioned mobil 1 rally- an EA release from 2000; very advanced > for it's time; exciting and immersive gameplay and really a lot of fun. > I know it didn't sell well, but I'm sure someone here has tried it and > care to offer an opinion on it. I loved it - I really hope someone manages to recreate the stages in RBR. Looong stages - 20km, some absolute white-knuckle driving (IIRC the Scotland stages could get particularly hairy when the road narrowed). I'll have to see if it still runs on my gaming rig when my 8800GTS comes in :). Kendt

Yeah, wasn't bad. I have it somewhere. -Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > No ever mentioned mobil 1 rally- an EA release from 2000; very advanced > for it's time; exciting and immersive gameplay and really a lot of fun. > I know it didn't sell well, but I'm sure someone here has tried it and > care to offer an opinion on it. >

[email hidden] wrote: > No ever mentioned mobil 1 rally- an EA release from 2000; very advanced > for it's time; exciting and immersive gameplay and really a lot of fun. > I know it didn't sell well, but I'm sure someone here has tried it and > care to offer an opinion on it. Great sim. I wish someone would make one that combined the simulation qualities of RBR with the gameplay from Mobil 1/RC 2000. The physics weren't the greatest, but the stages were heavenly. I wonder how difficult it would be to convert Mobil 1 stages over to Driver's Republic (the new sim from the RBR physics programmer). Hmmmmmmmmmm...

Hello Ray, I own both the Rfactor and Live for Speed simulators. I don't even bother with any of the 'games' out there. "news" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:vx0ch.3720$[email hidden]...

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> co-worker wants to buy a Logitech G25 and wants to know what games to get > to go with it. I like my racing realistic... so much that I've been > racing a real dirt car for the last couple of years... so I've not simmed > much since about the time the rFactor demo came out... > > What would be the best 5 picks for him to buy (and why?) > He wants realism, but maybe not quite "real" realism if you know what I > mean. :) > > (and how about for me? What's the best of the best driving sims out there > for how the car drives.... graphics be dammed... I want the car to feel > like a real car would.) > > I'm open to all types - oval, road, rally, pointy cars, even Need for > Speed if it's good enough. (uh... yeah... somehow I doubt any NFS is > going to be even close to realistic enough for me after a couple years of > getting real mud in my face.) > > Ray

Dave F wrote: > As for Schumacher's techinique that you described, that's > exactly how I drive. Come to think of it, have you ever seen Fisher and Schumacher in the same picture?

On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 08:16:10 -0500, Dave F wrote: > blame it on the sim. My teammate and I both used the same setups, but he > uses a non-force feedback wheel and I use a DFP, and yet our results are > close to identical. > > Hi Dave, would you be willing to share your dfp ff settings for rFactor? Could you post them here so I can give them a try on my setup? cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:42:19 GMT, Tony Rickard wrote: > Dave F wrote: >> As for Schumacher's techinique that you described, that's >> exactly how I drive. > > Come to think of it, have you ever seen Fisher and Schumacher in the > same picture? If you're on about Sarah Fisher, I guess there's a good chance such a photo exists ;-) Uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Dave F wrote: > When I say "smooth", I'm referring to how the car appears to a spectator. No > one saws at the wheel in real F1 like we would in GPL. That's because GPL, while being a revolutionary sim in 1998, doesn't bear a whole lot of resemblance to reality. Don't get me wrong, it's great for learning driving and race technique and it's a real challenge to drive, but it was also superceded by 3 sims that improved on it, and even the most recent of those hasn't had a facelift since late 2003. I'm pretty sure when F1C came out, I made the point that the physics were on par with GPL (if not on RAS or RSC, then numerous times on VROC when I tried to defend it to the "lol it's no GPL" idiots). The problem to me is that a.) the open wheelers in rFactor don't improve on the ones in F1C in any appreciable way (aside from the netcode of course) and b.) being as good as GPL isn't good enough anymore. It wasn't good enough for me when N2003 came out, when PTA and GTP came out, when RBR came out, and it's not good enough at a time when we have GT Legends, GTR2, and eventually Driver's Republic (a game developed by someone with a verifiable sim background who is equally interested in vehicle dynamics and being open to modification - it's like combining Kaemmer and ISI in one package). The sad thing about GTR2, while I'm ranting, is that people are blasting it for compromises that had to be made to the physics - compromises necessitated by the limitations of ISI's engine. The 2 big complaints involve the tire slip angles and the lack of downforce loss due to yaw being applied to the wings. 2 areas that, after 8 years of sim development, still cannot be modelled to any reasonable degree in an ISI engine. The whole "speed at which grip drops to half" cheap-ass hack is nice and all, but it wouldn't be necessary if they built a real tire model that could handle the changes in the behavior of tires at various speeds. Likewise, I still can't fathom how it's impossible to model anything but a linear relationship between yaw and downforce. Surely it wouldn't be that hard to implement definable curves for that? You know, so you could model how an actual aerodynamic device works. Anyway, good luck with rfactor and all that. If you manage to find an incar video of an open wheel sim where the steering wheel movement is anywhere near this, let me know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dQsA_3sg1U

news wrote: > Because these are SIMULATIONS of the real thing, they won't be 100% > accurate. And even if they were, being able to drive a 67 F1 car > doesn't necessarily prepare you to draft at Daytona or drive an sprint > car sideways for 100 laps. Unless you're Mario Andretti. :D (agree with your post, tho)

Dave F wrote: > I ran the Megane mod at R.A.C.E.R. recently and mistakenly chose the wrong > ff option in the upgrades section. The car felt disconnected from the road, > and I was 2 seconds off the pace at WG Long. Later I went back and changed > the setting and the car felt great and I found those two seconds and a > little bit more immediately. It was MY fault that the car didn't feel right > and I was struggling, not the sim. I've never used FF in any sim, and I've never felt disconnected with any Kaemmer produced sim, nor RBR/GTL/GTR2. I guess it's my fault that you need FF to know what the hell the car is doing in ISI open wheelers, because somehow I made them incapable of producing a car that responds in a predictable manner or provides any non-FF tactile feedback.

jason moyer wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dQsA_3sg1U I love onboards of Albers, too. How he doesn't spin the car in 2/3 of the corners with how much countersteering he uses I'll never know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDTKo8tPoU

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Dave F wrote: > >> I ran the Megane mod at R.A.C.E.R. recently and mistakenly chose the >> wrong >> ff option in the upgrades section. The car felt disconnected from the >> road, >> and I was 2 seconds off the pace at WG Long. Later I went back and >> changed >> the setting and the car felt great and I found those two seconds and a >> little bit more immediately. It was MY fault that the car didn't feel >> right >> and I was struggling, not the sim. > > I've never used FF in any sim, and I've never felt disconnected with > any Kaemmer produced sim, nor RBR/GTL/GTR2. I guess it's my fault that > you need FF to know what the hell the car is doing in ISI open > wheelers, because somehow I made them incapable of producing a car > that responds in a predictable manner or provides any non-FF tactile > feedback.

As i said in another post, my teammate in the R.A.C.E.R. F1 championship used the same setups as I did with a non-ff wheel (I have a DFP) and our times and full length race performance was almost identical. There were some other well known sim racers in that series who also run without ff and had/have no problems with the sim's feeedback. -- David G Fisher

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Anyway, good luck with rfactor and all that. If you manage to find an > incar video of an open wheel sim where the steering wheel movement is > anywhere near this, let me know: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dQsA_3sg1U I took the Ferrari, set it up with a 2006 qualifing setup, and purposely made a lap which is less than .1 quicker than Schumacher's 2006 pole time . Looks identical except I ran a little wider at Alta. If you made one of those split screen comparisons between his lap and my sim lap it would practically be a mirror image. I'd do it myself but I don't have the software or the know how. You're welcome to it. You need to know that when watching a replay in rFactor that the wheel you see on the car is set at 270 degrees. If I made a replay using 900 degrees steering rotations with my DFP and whipping the wheel all over the place, you'd still see very little movement in the replay on your computer. Change the "Steering wheel range" in your controller file to about 440 and you'll see wheel movement in a replay that more closely resembles a F1 car. Many simmers have wheels locked at 270 degrees, and they also use a high steering lock in their setups so the wheel doesn't move nearly as much as a real driver's. That doesn't mean they aren't making a lot of corrections. A real F1 driver could never use a setup like that because 4.5 G's would make it impossible to have such a sensitive touch on the wheel. In those videos, Schumacher and Albers made mistakes and the tires broke loose. That's why they had to make such huge corrections. It wasn't their technique for fast lap times. If Schumacher didn't make that msitake at Rivazza, he would have had a faster lap. I've made a million saves like that over the past months in CTDP F1. I have no idea why you think it's impossible, other than your wheel isn't setup correctly and/or you have bad setups. -- David G Fisher

Dave F wrote: > In those videos, Schumacher and Albers made mistakes and the tires broke > loose. Schumacher's lap is the track record at Imola.

Dave F wrote: > I'd do it myself but I don't have the > software or the know how. You're welcome to it. Can you do telemetry? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk2p2nRK-p4 The comparison between Herbert and Schumacher in the middle of bridge corner is pretty interesting. I'm highly skeptical that Schumacher's sawing at the wheel in the middle of the corner would be a viable means of driving an ISI F1 car, and if someone did manage to keep the car from snap-spinning I'm guessing they wouldn't be 0.2 seconds up on someone driving smoothly.

jason moyer wrote:

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> Great sim. I wish someone would make one that combined the simulation > qualities of RBR with the gameplay from Mobil 1/RC 2000. The physics > weren't the greatest, but the stages were heavenly. > > I wonder how difficult it would be to convert Mobil 1 stages over to > Driver's Republic (the new sim from the RBR physics programmer). > Hmmmmmmmmmm...

The sight of jizz on your chin reminds me of a cool summer breeze.