What is Papyrus' Future?

As I sit here reading posts about GP3, World Sports Cars and EA's F1 I can't help but wonder where Papy is going. Should they be renamed Nascar Development Group? How long will that franchise last if EA turns some good developers loose on their Nascar titles? Like many, I have appreciated the love and care put into GPL. However, I can't see that engine being used for anything other than more Nascar crap. (I buy the games to support them but they sit on the shelf). No modern F1 franchise, no U.S. open wheel franchise and the other series will look even less palatable to their masters.They have obviously tightened budgets by farming their artwork out to Russia. I doubt that their move to new quarters was to a bigger and nicer place. How long will they last with big guys like EA slowly racheting up the quality? Any thoughts? (as if I needed to ask that on RAS) Jeff

>Should they be renamed >Nascar Development Group? How long will that franchise last if EA >turns some good developers loose on their Nascar titles? Depends if they retire the aging Nascar2 physics/game engine or not. In my opinion it's time for it to go. I won't buy any more games based on it. Joe McGinn _____________________ Radical Entertainment

> As I sit here reading posts about GP3, World Sports Cars and EA's F1 I > can't help but wonder where Papy is going. Should they be renamed clip > Any thoughts? (as if I needed to ask that on RAS) There are plenty of opinions here, but actual thoughts are few and far between :) Sure hope they can get something other than another N1 revision out the door. I haven't even heard rumors of anything other than NASCAR sims though :( -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

I hear what your saying but the problem is Nascar sells. I would love an F-1 game based on the late 70's before the turbo era. I would also love a 1960's CanAm game. The big thing is that not too many people would buy these games (on the grand scheme of things). You take a game like NFS, it sells. I personally do not like it but People want arcade driving games. They want a game that is pedal on the floor and steer! Not too many people like to set up a car or wait 10 laps to make a move and then feel good about it. I know people on this NG do love GPL and sim games but for most it is just too hard and complicated. Remember we all have a problem! We're ***ed to sim racing! Our needs dont match that of the general public. Lets keep our fingers crossed. Al Stiff

Hope for Papy? Let's not forget they're owned by Sierra. The world sucks. Marty

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> As I sit here reading posts about GP3, World Sports Cars and EA's F1 I > can't help but wonder where Papy is going. Should they be renamed > Nascar Development Group? How long will that franchise last if EA > turns some good developers loose on their Nascar titles? > Like many, I have appreciated the love and care put into GPL. > However, I can't see that engine being used for anything other than > more Nascar crap. (I buy the games to support them but they sit on the > shelf). No modern F1 franchise, no U.S. open wheel franchise and the > other series will look even less palatable to their masters.They have > obviously tightened budgets by farming their artwork out to Russia. I > doubt that their move to new quarters was to a bigger and nicer place. > How long will they last with big guys like EA slowly racheting up the > quality? > Any thoughts? (as if I needed to ask that on RAS) > Jeff

The problem (or benefit if you are a NASCAR fan like myself) is that NASCAR sells. Here in the United States, the market for such a sim is MUCH larger than any other form of racing, particularly F1. The CART/IRL split didn't help matters much for the open wheel crowd here in the US. As much as we are all sim lovers and fans, sometimes we all forget that the companies distributing these titles are corporations in BUSINESS to make money. (Or if you want to get to the nitty... Maximize Shareholders wealth). If I'm a shareholder... I want them to maximinize profits, not satisfy the wants of a small niche that might be a break even proposition or even if profitable, probably not so to the extent of NASCAR here in the US. Believe me, I would be waiting at the doors to get my hands on a solid Historic CAN-AM title! Don't quote me <VBG>, but NASCAR 4 is looking at a release by late summer. (Of course, that could mean Christmas 2001 too <VBG>) Will it have the GPL engine? Sort of. From my understanding, it will have a 6 degrees of freedom physics engine based on the GPL engine but heavily re-worked to accomodate NASCAR style racing. What that exactly means I do not know, but 6 degrees of freedom is definitely not the N1/N2 and N2 modified (N3) physics engine. Regardless... I would hardly be worried about what EA Sports is doing with their NASCAR license. They are basically producing prettier graphic versions of old quarter arcade titles with more bugs <VBG> Again, don't quote me ;) Scott PA-Scott PowerSims.com -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

It sure will be a shame if the new physics engine will not be used for anything but NASCAR. I'm a relative newcomer to sim racing, firstly with GP2 and ICR2 then F1RS and onto GPL with a bit of SCGT thrown in for good measure. I'm hoping for good things from WSC and GP3, but please lets have decent online multiplayer, that one omission alone is simply unacceptable in this day and age. What we need is another Papy open wheel racing sim, after all that is what they love, what they want to be doing and what they do really well, if only they could persuade the suits at Sierra. Unfortunately I can't see that happening, at least in the foreseeable future. If a decent sim doesn't come out soon, I may have to start go-karting, ok its not the fastest motorsport ever but the physics engine is nearly as good as GPL <VBG> :) Ian Parker UKGPL League http://members.xoom.com/ukgpl ==

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> > As I sit here reading posts about GP3, World Sports Cars and EA's F1 I > > can't help but wonder where Papy is going. Should they be renamed > clip > > Any thoughts? (as if I needed to ask that on RAS) > There are plenty of opinions here, but actual > thoughts are few and far between :) > Sure hope they can get something other than > another N1 revision out the door. I haven't > even heard rumors of anything other than > NASCAR sims though :( > -- > Pat Dotson > IMPACT Motorsports > http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

As they normally do each year, you will probably have something during the Daytona Speedweeks, where Papyrus and Sierra Sports will give to the press their 2000 lineup. Which will include two Stock-car titles (the Truck expansion pack for N3 and Nascar Racing 4 using the GPL game engine). Unfortunately, there has been no clue at all if they will stop milking money out of stockcar games, but let's hope, remember 7 out of the 8 last Papyrus titles have been NASCAR ones. Enough is enough. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:50:49 GMT, "Scott B. Husted"

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>The problem (or benefit if you are a NASCAR fan like myself) is that >NASCAR sells. Here in the United States, the market for such a sim is >MUCH larger than any other form of racing, particularly F1. The CART/IRL >split didn't help matters much for the open wheel crowd here in the US. >As much as we are all sim lovers and fans, sometimes we all forget that >the companies distributing these titles are corporations in BUSINESS to >make money. (Or if you want to get to the nitty... Maximize Shareholders >wealth). If I'm a shareholder... I want them to maximinize profits, not >satisfy the wants of a small niche that might be a break even proposition >or even if profitable, probably not so to the extent of NASCAR here in the >US.

Scott, I agree with the last part of your comments, "maximize sharholder wealth". But, Havas (their parent) is an international company and the world market for racing games to me would point to F1 (albit modern). GP1(world circuit) and GP2 were huge commercial successes. I somehow feel that they have become the Betamax company in a VHS world. Jeff

>Unfortunately, there has been no clue at all if they will stop milking money >out of stockcar games, but let's hope, remember 7 out of the 8 last Papyrus >titles have been NASCAR ones. Enough is enough. Ymenard, depends on your point of view. Until they get EVERYTHING **I** want in a NASCAR sim, I don't think they're done (I know that's very self-centered). I'm still waiting for pit stalls based on qualifying and EVERY NASCAR track, and 6 degrees of movement. I could probably forgo most of the other omissions. It's just lucky for ME that I don't care about open wheel racing - but I can empathize with those of you THAT DO, 'cause I'd be pissed if the last 7 were open wheel games instead of NASCAR. Gunner

Nascar sells because NASCAR sells. In other words, there is some bleed over between race fans and sim drivers. The same case can be made for Formula 1 races. They have a US stop this year. One would think the publicity -- soon to come, one might hope -- should do wonders for F1 sims. There definitely is a lack of awareness in the US. ESPN followed the F1 circuit pretty closely in '96, but there was a very definite dearth of coverage since. Lackluster audience shares tends to do this. Alas, it won't do Papy much good to push the old model years. This truly is a crying shame. Michael. a

On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:50:49 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" >Regardless... I would hardly be worried about what EA Sports is doing with >their NASCAR license. They are basically producing prettier graphic >versions of old quarter arcade titles with more bugs <VBG> Scott, In the early/mid 70's I raced motocross and to be competitive you had to have a European bike, Husky, Maaco, Bultaco, KTM, etc. The big 4 of Japan had bikes but they were junk. If you raced them you had to throw most of the stuff away and buy aftermarket equipment. Everyone laughed at them but every year they went back to Japan and did a little better. I don't need to tell you where they are now. Somehow I have the same feeling about EA Sports. Jeff

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> The problem (or benefit if you are a NASCAR fan like myself) is that > NASCAR sells. Here in the United States, the market for such a sim is > MUCH larger than any other form of racing, particularly F1. The CART/IRL > split didn't help matters much for the open wheel crowd here in the US. > As much as we are all sim lovers and fans, sometimes we all forget that > the companies distributing these titles are corporations in BUSINESS to > make money. (Or if you want to get to the nitty... Maximize Shareholders > wealth). If I'm a shareholder... I want them to maximinize profits, not > satisfy the wants of a small niche that might be a break even proposition > or even if profitable, probably not so to the extent of NASCAR here in the > US. > Believe me, I would be waiting at the doors to get my hands on a solid > Historic CAN-AM title! > Don't quote me <VBG>, but NASCAR 4 is looking at a release by late summer. > (Of course, that could mean Christmas 2001 too <VBG>) Will it have the > GPL engine? Sort of. From my understanding, it will have a 6 degrees of > freedom physics engine based on the GPL engine but heavily re-worked to > accomodate NASCAR style racing. What that exactly means I do not know, > but 6 degrees of freedom is definitely not the N1/N2 and N2 modified (N3) > physics engine. > Regardless... I would hardly be worried about what EA Sports is doing with > their NASCAR license. They are basically producing prettier graphic > versions of old quarter arcade titles with more bugs <VBG> > Again, don't quote me ;) > Scott > PA-Scott > PowerSims.com > -- > Scott B. Husted > ICQ# 4395450

Do you think Papyrus will ever port one of their sims to the Dreamcast?

>Unfortunately, there has been no clue at all if they will stop milking money >out of stockcar games, but let's hope, remember 7 out of the 8 last Papyrus >titles have been NASCAR ones. Enough is enough. > Unfortunately :-) our system encourages companies to do those activities that make the most money for them. The most you can reasonably ask is that they take the long view of what will make the most money for them. Alternatives to that system are unrealistic (even if they share your taste, few successful business people are in it for esthetics) or scary (who decides what is good?). If you want different games, start your own company and have at it. Or somehow convince Papyrus that you are right and they are wrong about what is in their best business interest. Good luck :-). I don't object to you expressing an opinion about what you want, but the exasperated attitude toward Papyrus (and you're hardly alone there) is inappropriate. Think of it this way. NASCAR dollars undoubtably subsidized GPL development. bob

The last article I remember with David Kaemmer had the interviewer asking this question, and Im almost sure he replied something like.. with the new consoles on the market (DC and PSX2), they will consider it more than in the past. Their only console title was pretty good actually, compared to all the ***arcade games sold as a semi-serious sim (even if it's pretty old by today's standard). Of course, I could be wrong, but I do say that the consoles of today have a potential for serious racing simulator with arcade helps. A title like N3 could be very well ported. It may be difficult, but as a title by itself N3 has a great depth of gameplay. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Jeffrey, Papyrus though is a US company and has always focused on US motorsports (as far as I know). One other problem I have with F1 ( A HUGE one if you ask me) is that F1 does not allow multiplayer over the internet in its licensing deals AFAIK. IF this is the case... There is NO way I would purchase a sim like this. Im an online multiplayer racer. GP3 could make GPL look like Pole Position, but if it doesnt offer internet multiplayer capability, it wont stay on my machine. I never even purchased N99 because of this exact reason. -- Scott B. Husted "PA-Scott" COO MMMGI ICQ# 4395450 http://www.MMMGI.com http://www.Acrotech.net http://www.Powersims.com http://www.InternetMotorsports.net > On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:50:49 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" > >The problem (or benefit if you are a NASCAR fan like myself) is that > >NASCAR sells. Here in the United States, the market for such a sim is > >MUCH larger than any other form of racing, particularly F1. The CART/IRL > >split didn't help matters much for the open wheel crowd here in the US. > >As much as we are all sim lovers and fans, sometimes we all forget that > >the companies distributing these titles are corporations in BUSINESS to > >make money. (Or if you want to get to the nitty... Maximize Shareholders > >wealth). If I'm a shareholder... I want them to maximinize profits, not > >satisfy the wants of a small niche that might be a break even proposition > >or even if profitable, probably not so to the extent of NASCAR here in the > >US. > Scott, > I agree with the last part of your comments, "maximize sharholder > wealth". But, Havas (their parent) is an international company and > the world market for racing games to me would point to F1 (albit > modern). GP1(world circuit) and GP2 were huge commercial successes. > I somehow feel that they have become the Betamax company in a VHS > world. > Jeff

Not to mention that if it is simulated accurately, will be a tremendous learning curve. I believe because of the level of difficulty in passing and how delicate the cars are. Online play will be just as boring as the real thing with single file races. -- Kevin Anderson --------------------------------------------------- DK-Racing #15 K_Anderson ------------------------------------------------- http://www.awtech.net/ http://www.nascar-3.com/ > Jeffrey, > Papyrus though is a US company and has always focused on US motorsports (as > far as I know). One other problem I have with F1 ( A HUGE one if you ask > me) is that F1 does not allow multiplayer over the internet in its licensing > deals AFAIK. IF this is the case... There is NO way I would purchase a sim > like this. Im an online multiplayer racer. GP3 could make GPL look like > Pole Position, but if it doesnt offer internet multiplayer capability, it > wont stay on my machine. I never even purchased N99 because of this exact > reason. > -- > Scott B. Husted > "PA-Scott" > COO > MMMGI > ICQ# 4395450 > [link lost in import] > [link lost in import] > [link lost in import] > http://www.InternetMotorsports.net > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:50:49 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" > > >The problem (or benefit if you are a NASCAR fan like myself) is that > > >NASCAR sells. Here in the United States, the market for such a sim is > > >MUCH larger than any other form of racing, particularly F1. The CART/IRL > > >split didn't help matters much for the open wheel crowd here in the US. > > >As much as we are all sim lovers and fans, sometimes we all forget that > > >the companies distributing these titles are corporations in BUSINESS to > > >make money. (Or if you want to get to the nitty... Maximize > Shareholders > > >wealth). If I'm a shareholder... I want them to maximinize profits, not > > >satisfy the wants of a small niche that might be a break even proposition > > >or even if profitable, probably not so to the extent of NASCAR here in > the > > >US. > > Scott, > > I agree with the last part of your comments, "maximize sharholder > > wealth". But, Havas (their parent) is an international company and > > the world market for racing games to me would point to F1 (albit > > modern). GP1(world circuit) and GP2 were huge commercial successes. > > I somehow feel that they have become the Betamax company in a VHS > > world. > > Jeff

Lets not forget that GPL was a work of love and we should be happy about it much less ask for anything else given it's commercial success.

That would assume you have online drivers of similar ability. With the sim world we have a much bigger gap between the great and the merely good. and of course those like me, the very awful! So if you had a league of very experienced drivers, that might be true, but with the wide gaps in online abilities, there will always be backmarkers mucking things up...hey it's our job! dave henrie

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> Not to mention that if it is simulated accurately, will be a tremendous > learning curve. I believe because of the level of difficulty in passing and > how delicate the cars are. Online play will be just as boring as the real > thing with single file races. > -- > Kevin Anderson > --------------------------------------------------- > DK-Racing > #15 K_Anderson > ------------------------------------------------- > http://www.awtech.net/ > http://www.nascar-3.com/ > > Jeffrey, > > Papyrus though is a US company and has always focused on US motorsports > (as > > far as I know). One other problem I have with F1 ( A HUGE one if you ask > > me) is that F1 does not allow multiplayer over the internet in its > licensing > > deals AFAIK. IF this is the case... There is NO way I would purchase a > sim > > like this. Im an online multiplayer racer. GP3 could make GPL look like > > Pole Position, but if it doesnt offer internet multiplayer capability, it > > wont stay on my machine. I never even purchased N99 because of this exact > > reason. > > -- > > Scott B. Husted > > "PA-Scott" > > COO > > MMMGI > > ICQ# 4395450 > > http://www.MMMGI.com > > http://www.Acrotech.net > > http://www.Powersims.com > > http://www.InternetMotorsports.net > > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:50:49 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" > > > >The problem (or benefit if you are a NASCAR fan like myself) is that > > > >NASCAR sells. Here in the United States, the market for such a sim is > > > >MUCH larger than any other form of racing, particularly F1. The > CART/IRL > > > >split didn't help matters much for the open wheel crowd here in the US. > > > >As much as we are all sim lovers and fans, sometimes we all forget that > > > >the companies distributing these titles are corporations in BUSINESS to > > > >make money. (Or if you want to get to the nitty... Maximize > > Shareholders > > > >wealth). If I'm a shareholder... I want them to maximinize profits, > not > > > >satisfy the wants of a small niche that might be a break even > proposition > > > >or even if profitable, probably not so to the extent of NASCAR here in > > the > > > >US. > > > Scott, > > > I agree with the last part of your comments, "maximize sharholder > > > wealth". But, Havas (their parent) is an international company and > > > the world market for racing games to me would point to F1 (albit > > > modern). GP1(world circuit) and GP2 were huge commercial successes. > > > I somehow feel that they have become the Betamax company in a VHS > > > world. > > > Jeff

Until the 73 Elsinore... that was my era.

I'm not particularly a NASCAR fan, but I can see the logic of incremental upgrades. A game only costs 40 bucks or so. If you are a fan, you will probably enjoy the improvements each year - it seems to me the improvements in the NASCAR series are more than enough to justify 40 bucks, and this year they even put an interesting spin on it with NL. Hasbro's marketing plan with GP3,4,5,6 etc. will also work with the F1 fans. I certainly don't begrudge a software company milking a cash cow. too many companies go under trying to develop specialist products. Even the mighty DID have been bought out. Stephen : Ymenard, depends on your point of view. Until they get EVERYTHING **I** : want in a NASCAR sim, I don't think they're done (I know that's very : self-centered). I'm still waiting for pit stalls based on qualifying and : EVERY NASCAR track, and 6 degrees of movement. I could probably forgo most : of the other omissions. : It's just lucky for ME that I don't care about open wheel racing - but I can : empathize with those of you THAT DO, 'cause I'd be pissed if the last 7 were : open wheel games instead of NASCAR. : Gunner

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] spread his wisdom with the following words... > Do you think Papyrus will ever port one of their sims to the Dreamcast? I'm sure a console conversion is something they have already considered - not for the Dreamcast but for the Playstation 2. The Dreamcast simply isn't good enough to convert the feel of a true sim on a PC to the console. The Playstation 2 however is set to advance on PC technology for a number of years to come. I wonder if the Playstation 2 will be able to support force feedback controllers, or will we have to wait for the Microsoft X-Box to open up that area of the console/sim genre. Neo

This is also my point of view. The product that was released and marketed as "NASCAR 3" was not the N3 Papy had been developing for the past two or more years. What they released was an improved version of N2 with better sound and more eye candy. It's my hope that they concentrate solely on releasing the *real* N3 (supposedly to be renamed and released as N4) and satisfy us NASCAR fans (those of us that love GPL and want that engine applied to a NASCAR sim are not satisfied, BTW) and *then*, and only then, begin work on CART3 or GPL2 or whatever. -- ----------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten mailto:[email hidden] http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ ----------------------------------- Don Hancock ("Gunner") <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CCLj4.406$[email hidden]... > ymenard wrote in message <3KKj4.97$[email hidden]>... > >Unfortunately, there has been no clue at all if they will stop milking > money > >out of stockcar games, but let's hope, remember 7 out of the 8 last Papyrus > >titles have been NASCAR ones. Enough is enough. > > > > Ymenard, depends on your point of view. Until they get EVERYTHING **I** > want in a NASCAR sim, I don't think they're done (I know that's very > self-centered). I'm still waiting for pit stalls based on qualifying and > EVERY NASCAR track, and 6 degrees of movement. I could probably forgo most > of the other omissions. > It's just lucky for ME that I don't care about open wheel racing - but I can > empathize with those of you THAT DO, 'cause I'd be pissed if the last 7 were > open wheel games instead of NASCAR. > > Gunner > > >

The question really isn't what is Papy's future. They will keep pumping out whatever the been counters calculate will make them money. The real question should be what is the future of we the "***" sim racers. Where do we want to get to, and is there any company out there that can get us there?

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> > Any thoughts? (as if I needed to ask that on RAS) > As they normally do each year, you will probably have something during the > Daytona Speedweeks, where Papyrus and Sierra Sports will give to the press > their 2000 lineup. Which will include two Stock-car titles (the Truck > expansion pack for N3 and Nascar Racing 4 using the GPL game engine). > Unfortunately, there has been no clue at all if they will stop milking

money > out of stockcar games, but let's hope, remember 7 out of the 8 last Papyrus

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> titles have been NASCAR ones. Enough is enough. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Does anyone know what happened to Jim Solokoff? He used to frequent this newsgroup and give us updates on the Papy sims. I lost touch with this ng for a while and haven't seen any posts from hiim lately. Does he even still work for Papy/Sierra?