rec.autos.simulators

Practice ideas?

Eldre

Practice ideas?

by Eldre » Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:11:35

Posted under a different thread than my other questions, since this applies to
all sims..
A while ago, Jan asked me how I go about practicing my driving.  I don't really
have any particular thing that I do, except trying to brake later(which people
say is wrong), or go faster in the turns and hope I come out the other side.  I
really just run laps, I guess in some hope that something will magically
'click', and I'll be fast.
I guess I should have asked - how *should* I be practicing?  Is there a certain
way you guys approach a new track, or even one you already know?  Once you know
the layout of the track(any track), how do you go about gaining speed?  I mean,
what else is there to learn?

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Jim Seamu

Practice ideas?

by Jim Seamu » Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:40:18

I'm no hotshoe, but I'll happily chuck ideas at ya Eldred :0)

When I "start" a new track, I watch someone else's replay a few times to get
a "feel" and then I try to lap until I'm consistent (for me in GPL this
means putting in several consecutive laps in the same second as each other).
It's only once I've reached consistency that I can tell if doing something
different is actually making me faster.

Then I tend to concentrate on the "most important" corner, which I find is
usually the one leading on to the longest straight. Maximise exit speed onto
the straight and lap times tumble.

After that it's just a case of practice, practice, practice. :0)

Oh, one other thing that Maxx keeps saying and which I'm slowly coming to
realise is ***y good advice - get the LINE right. Line is much more
important than last-minute braking ability squealing tyres or setup tweaking
or great throttle control. Concentrate on the line. OK? Line. :0)

Good luck!

Jim


Jesse Blac

Practice ideas?

by Jesse Blac » Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:47:02

The biggest thing you need to remember is that exit speed is more important
than entrance speed until you are within a second or 2 of the world record.
The only way you are going to get this exit speed is going through the
corner faster and getting on the throttle sooner.  So when I am practicing
at a track, I tend to slow down a little earlier (you don't learn anything
by going wide or spinning) and let off the brakes early and let the car get
settled before turning in...of course when I get off the brakes, I always
use some neutral throttle (1/4 throttle tends to be the normal).  Then I try
to take the corner as fast as possible and add throttle as early as possible
(and when you add throttle, it should be a smooth constant application).
Each time you enter the corner, let off the brake earlier so you are going a
little faster when you enter the turn...since you are braking early, if you
***up a little bit, you always have time to salvage the corner.  If you
slow down too much, you can always add a little bit extra gas as you get to
the corner.

Of course when I say slow down a little early, I'm talking hit the brakes in
a comfortable spot where you know you can slow down in time...you don't have
to push the envelope.  Also, as you learn to take the corner faster, you can
start to push your braking later.  Once again don't push the envelope, but
just brake at a comfortable place...hopefully your "comfort zone" will get
later and later.  If you are entering the corner still worried about slowing
down and not getting the power down at the apex, then you are not braking in
your comfort zone and need to backup your brake zone and start over with the
"letting off the brakes early" excercise.

Hopefully this makes sense/helps.  If anyone has questions or wants more

Jesse Black

Maxx

Practice ideas?

by Maxx » Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:17:57

Jesse,

Excellent advice!

Maxx



>The biggest thing you need to remember is that exit speed is more important
>than entrance speed until you are within a second or 2 of the world record.
>The only way you are going to get this exit speed is going through the
>corner faster and getting on the throttle sooner.  So when I am practicing
>at a track, I tend to slow down a little earlier (you don't learn anything
>by going wide or spinning) and let off the brakes early and let the car get
>settled before turning in...of course when I get off the brakes, I always
>use some neutral throttle (1/4 throttle tends to be the normal).  Then I try
>to take the corner as fast as possible and add throttle as early as possible
>(and when you add throttle, it should be a smooth constant application).
>Each time you enter the corner, let off the brake earlier so you are going a
>little faster when you enter the turn...since you are braking early, if you
>screw up a little bit, you always have time to salvage the corner.  If you
>slow down too much, you can always add a little bit extra gas as you get to
>the corner.

>Of course when I say slow down a little early, I'm talking hit the brakes in
>a comfortable spot where you know you can slow down in time...you don't have
>to push the envelope.  Also, as you learn to take the corner faster, you can
>start to push your braking later.  Once again don't push the envelope, but
>just brake at a comfortable place...hopefully your "comfort zone" will get
>later and later.  If you are entering the corner still worried about slowing
>down and not getting the power down at the apex, then you are not braking in
>your comfort zone and need to backup your brake zone and start over with the
>"letting off the brakes early" excercise.

>Hopefully this makes sense/helps.  If anyone has questions or wants more

>Jesse Black

Maxx

Practice ideas?

by Maxx » Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:00:59

On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 04:40:18 -0000, "Jim Seamus"


>Oh, one other thing that Maxx keeps saying and which I'm slowly coming to
>realise is ***y good advice - get the LINE right. Line is much more
>important than last-minute braking ability squealing tyres or setup tweaking
>or great throttle control. Concentrate on the line. OK? Line. :0)

>Good luck!

>Jim

Absolutely!

Better Line = Free Speed.

No need to brake later.
No need to master "lively setups"
No need to have the reflexes of a cat.
No need to put 100 more laps in.
No need to drive in such a fasion that you only make 1 lap in 5.

The simplest thing to do is to review your driving from F10 view
and make note of any times you are not using the FULL WIDTH
of the track. Then go back and try and use more. Get that wheel
right near the verge just before turn-in, shave that apex, use all
that exit road.

It really is free-time.

I'm convinced that many drivers still pay much more attention
yo braking  than to tuen-in's, apexes and exit's.

Ask any driver to describe his braking points at a certrain
track and he can do it very accuratetly. "Just as the groove
darken", "just as the billboard on the left dissappears from view",
"on count of 2 after the bridge".

Ask a driver to describe his turn-in points and you'll often get
a blank stare, it's usually the place he ends up at once he's
taken sufficient speed off to turn. Apex, well that a combination
of where he ended up turning in, the amount of slide he got
and the amount of control he could wrest from the car in that
corner, not too close to the verge though as that could spoil the
excellent late braking move he'd just pulled off.

Exit points, well, they take care of themselves right?

Another very important point is the transition point from
trailing/balanced throttle to actual acceleration. I think many
drivers will know this for a couple of corners, Parabolica is
one certainly but it's an important point for all corners.

Now, the above is perhaps an exxageration for some but
true for many.

OK, back to line. You relaly need to prove it to yourself
before you start to believe it. EVERYONE has read somewhere
that line is so important but many don't believe it.

They CAN'T really believe it as they just don't pay enough attention
to it.

2 ways to hopefully prove it to you :

1) Drive an Oval.

OK, Trenton is a freely available oval, so lets use that. We want to
take a car that we don't need to brake with for the turns. I'd suggest
the F2 BRM but most F2s will do (or even F3s).

I suggested F2s as there are example laps and setups at JCs :
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Get the setup and use it AS IS (don't make ANY changes). Also
get the replay but DON'T LOOK AT IT YET.

Get in your car and drive about a dozen laps just to get comfy
and learn the track. You can alter the steering ratio if you want
if it feels odd.

Save the best lap.

Now, go out and do about 6-8 laps and really try for a good time.

Save the best lap.

Now,  load those two laps and the replay from JCs into RA and
use the playback features. Watch where the laps differ, in terms
of speed and line.

Then use the Merge feature to merge all 3 laps into one and
play it back in GPL. Notice that a fairly small difference in line
makes quite a bit of difference in corner and exit speed.

If you have time, go back and do a few more laps and try and
put into practice what you've learned. HOPEFULLY, you should
be a little quicker but don't get dispondent if your not, there are
many subtleties in oval racing.

2) Compare your lap with a similar speed HOTlap done in a
SLOWER CAR.

OK, if you've done say an F1 lap at Silverstone, in the range
1:28ish to 1:35ish. get a similar speed lap from JCs (as above)
preferably by an FD (1:28 to 1:33) or if you need a slower one
then F2s go down to about 1:35.

If the FD/F2 lap is as quick as your F1 lap then the MAIN
reasons for this will be LINE. FD/F2s have less spowerful
engines and will lose out big time on the straights

Merge your F1 lap and the lap from JCs and just watch the
differences (from F10 view and***pit)..

If your wanting to analyse and FD/F2 lap of your own then
get a lap from JCs in a slower car. You still might not be able
to get one at the same pace but you can adust the start GAP
in GPLRA such that you arrive at various corners at about
the same time. You can even merger 4 copies of your own
lap (suitably speced) with the hotlap.

DON'T immediately go out and try and emulate the EXACT
line of that car, just take on board the FACT that a better
line makes and ENORMOUS difference and when you drive
next AT ANY TRACK, concentrate on liine ABOVE ALL ELSE
until you can review it from F10 and be happy that you are
using the very best line you can.

It's not always possible to get right up to edge, or to
really shave that apex. PC controllers are not that accurate
and trying to get too close can often result in an off BUT
most drivers can get much closer than they do at the moment.

You can ONLY do this if you are in control of the car. If you
try and drive just 1% above your ability you won't be able to
do this successfully. You may be able to do a great job of
catching a tail-slide but if you need to do that then you aren't yet
GOOD enough to avoid a tail-slide and thats where you need to
be concentrating.

Once you've mastered driving around a track, using the
optimum line and under COMPLETE CONTROL you can then
move on to driving it STILL using the optimum line but ALMOST
OUT OF CONTROL.

A famous and very succesfull racing driver once said "If your
in control your not going faster enough" (sorry, can't remember
who). I know what he is saying and it's true to a degree BUT
you must first learn to drive well (i.e. proper lines etc.) and to
drive well you must be in control. Once you can drive well
then you can start pushing the boundaries a bit more.

Maxx

Pat Dotso

Practice ideas?

by Pat Dotso » Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:57:58


> A famous and very succesfull racing driver once said "If your
> in control your not going faster enough" (sorry, can't remember
> who). I know what he is saying and it's true to a degree BUT
> you must first learn to drive well (i.e. proper lines etc.) and to
> drive well you must be in control. Once you can drive well
> then you can start pushing the boundaries a bit more.

Plus, I don't think he means that you have to be truly "out
of control".  What you can do once you have mastered car
control is sort of like throwing the car around.  You can
learn to anticipate what the car is going to do if you drive
too fast into a turn, and use it to your advantage.

It's a matter of driving over your head, but knowing what
the expected result is, and being able to capitalize on it.
You are putting the car into a position where if something
unexpected happens you are screwed.  If everything goes as
planned, you will regain control and keep going.

This is basically hot lap driving, and it's probably very
uncommon in real life.  It's easy in sims because nothing
ever changes from lap to lap in terms of track condition.
In real life, there could be a wind gust, or some oil on
the track, or someone could have kicked some dust on the
track.  Something just enough to***you.  Plus, we
don't have to pay for crashed cars or hospital bills.

--
Pat Dotson

Dan Leac

Practice ideas?

by Dan Leac » Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:36:19

When im trying to learn a track or get faster i concentrate mainly on corner
exit speed. 10% of time is gained in braking and 90%in accellerating. so i
try to to 'line up' real fast exits to turns ... when ive got them sorted i
start pushing into the turn as well.


Maxx

Practice ideas?

by Maxx » Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:49:06

On Sun, 09 Dec 2001 07:57:58 -0500, Pat Dotson



>> A famous and very succesfull racing driver once said "If your
>> in control your not going faster enough" (sorry, can't remember
>> who). I know what he is saying and it's true to a degree BUT
>> you must first learn to drive well (i.e. proper lines etc.) and to
>> drive well you must be in control. Once you can drive well
>> then you can start pushing the boundaries a bit more.

>Plus, I don't think he means that you have to be truly "out
>of control".  What you can do once you have mastered car
>control is sort of like throwing the car around.  You can
>learn to anticipate what the car is going to do if you drive
>too fast into a turn, and use it to your advantage.

Pat,

Yes, I'm sure what is really being said by whoever he was
and me is not so much "out-of-control" but "out-of-comfort".

Many driver confuse the two. If you're comfortable your
driving too slowly might be a better description

Very accurate. It's going into a corner with less margin
for error. Of course, not even the best can drive with zero
margin for error for very long but thats often the difference
between pole and lesser positions and the reason why
Schu/Hak/Senna can pull off those seemingly amazing laps.

If you don't make errors (i.e. no driver ever) , and whats
more believe 100% that you are NOT going to make any
errors (many top drivers, top ones just make fewer errors,
less often, so have a bit of "extra" belief.

Absolutely, I don't think any driver has said he's driven
the perfect lap, certainly Stirling Moss claims to have
never done so. To get close you need to have the car
on the edge of traction from braking to exit, a 10th of a
degree either way at any stage and it's not perfect.

So, forget perfection, lets just get a bit quicker. To
do that requires driving skill and mental approach.

There are those who have the skill but still hold onto
that comfort zone (even though it perhaps doesn't
feel it).

There are also those who don't have the skill and
are quite happy it seems to wander out of the comfort
zone and do so often, into Armco, gravel traps, other
cars etc. etc. :-)

Maxx

Andre Warring

Practice ideas?

by Andre Warring » Tue, 11 Dec 2001 01:46:18


Yesterday I did some Zandy practice for my upcoming league race there.
Old pb was 25.77, but that was more of a lucky pb since most of my
laps were in the 26-27 range during online races.

I did a lap or 20 offline practice and steadily got back to the 25,
but I could not beat that 25.77. I was doing 25.8 and 25.9's
constantly, but I think even if I would have done a hundred more laps,
I would not really have improved myself, perhaps I would break that pb
with some luck but that would be it.

Instead, after those 20 laps, I started -tatarataaa- GPL Replay
Analyzer. I compared my laps to some of Huttu and Leonardo Grandis (my
two favorite drivers since they both have an unique driving style).
The best way to compare laps imho is to use that play button, so you
see both lines in real time being drawed on the map.

And at allmost every corner, the other guys were taking slightly
different lines. I watched their replays in GPL and tried to figure
out -why- they took the lines they chose.. well, one simple reason, it
allowed them to get on the gas sooner and keep more traction during
the exit.

I went back to GPL, and within 5 laps, using what I learned, I drove a
25.25 and then a 25.23. Later that evening some more laps, 10 or so,
and I did my first 24.96 lap. Allmost a second improvement within only
a couply of laps.

So, bottom line: Use GPLRA and GPLDump to compare laps and focus on
the lines the fast guys use, and to use Huttu's words: It's not about
how much you practice, but how you practice.

Andre

Andre Warring

Practice ideas?

by Andre Warring » Tue, 11 Dec 2001 02:25:13

On Sun, 09 Dec 2001 17:46:18 +0100, Andre Warringa


>I went back to GPL, and within 5 laps, using what I learned, I drove a
>25.25 and then a 25.23. Later that evening some more laps, 10 or so,
>and I did my first 24.96 lap. Allmost a second improvement within only
>a couply of laps.

15 more laps - 24.59 :D

Andre

Tom Pabs

Practice ideas?

by Tom Pabs » Tue, 11 Dec 2001 04:21:49

This is a great discussion line, hope the "new guys" are paying more
attention to the terrific information being relayed below by some of the
online racing communities "pros" and long-term sim drivers.....than the
GPLRank type discussions I've observed over the last six months.

Regards,

Tom


MSt

Practice ideas?

by MSt » Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:26:07

Well said. We need more of these threads.

> This is a great discussion line, hope the "new guys" are paying more
> attention to the terrific information being relayed below by some of the
> online racing communities "pros" and long-term sim drivers.....than the
> GPLRank type discussions I've observed over the last six months.

> Regards,

> Tom



> > Posted under a different thread than my other questions, since this
> applies to
> > all sims..
> > A while ago, Jan asked me how I go about practicing my driving.  I don't
> really
> > have any particular thing that I do, except trying to brake later(which
> people
> > say is wrong), or go faster in the turns and hope I come out the other
> side.  I
> > really just run laps, I guess in some hope that something will magically
> > 'click', and I'll be fast.
> > I guess I should have asked - how *should* I be practicing?  Is there a
> certain
> > way you guys approach a new track, or even one you already know?  Once
you
> know
> > the layout of the track(any track), how do you go about gaining speed?
I
> mean,
> > what else is there to learn?

> > Eldred
> > --
> > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > GPLRank - under construction...

> > Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats
> you
> > with experience...
> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Jim Seamu

Practice ideas?

by Jim Seamu » Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:02:37


<snip>

I totally agree. GPLRA is an absolute MUST if you want to save those last
tenths (or sometimes even that last whole second). Analyse, drive,
re-analyse, drive some more, use the "ghost" overlay, drive some more, and
make sure you get that fast line pinned down. Brilliant stuff.

Seamus

Eldre

Practice ideas?

by Eldre » Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:50:18



>Of course when I say slow down a little early, I'm talking hit the brakes in
>a comfortable spot where you know you can slow down in time...you don't have
>to push the envelope.  Also, as you learn to take the corner faster, you can
>start to push your braking later.  Once again don't push the envelope, but
>just brake at a comfortable place...hopefully your "comfort zone" will get
>later and later.  If you are entering the corner still worried about slowing
>down and not getting the power down at the apex, then you are not braking in
>your comfort zone and need to backup your brake zone and start over with the
>"letting off the brakes early" excercise.

I'll try that, too.  Thanks!

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldre

Practice ideas?

by Eldre » Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:50:20



>Oh, one other thing that Maxx keeps saying and which I'm slowly coming to
>realise is ***y good advice - get the LINE right. Line is much more
>important than last-minute braking ability squealing tyres or setup tweaking
>or great throttle control. Concentrate on the line. OK? Line. :0)

I was about to ask HOW you know what the right line is until I read his message
about comparing your replay to an F2 replay...<g>

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.


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