rec.autos.simulators

Is the Colin McRae Rallye 2 demo representative of the final game? I
tried it and the car just slides all the time. The surface has no effect
on traction. Even on asphalt, it feels as if i was driving on ice. Is it
just the demo or is the full game also affected?
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Hello "Groo",

In the full game, there is a noticable difference between pavement and dirt
roads, even more so on snow. However, since you have more "stick" on
asphalt, you just drive faster and therefore just get into shorter,
twichier, slides at higher speeds than on dirt. At least it's better than
the digital 'left-center-right' position steering in Mobil 1 Rally.
(Although that one has better graphics)

Since EB is selling it for only $29 Cdn, it's a fun diversion after hitting
the concrete wall in N4 yet again. <g> Like the rest of CodeMaster's
products, it has an annoying console-itis menu system. Hello! We have a
mouse attached yuh know...

        ...Klinn

While I don't agree with your observation, yes, the demo is
representative of the full game.

-Gregor

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:23:19 +0100, Gregor Veble

I agree with his observation. While I like the game, the poweslides
are way overdone. I assume that's why they made all the courses super
wide too. RC2000 is more representative of the real thing.

It's weird, when I drive it, it seems the grip is grossly overrated,
and I can smack the car around while staying on the track, gosh.
Compared to driving GPL this is black vs. white. ;-)
But when I look on TV at those guys racing, it seems to be even true!
I would get killed in every 2nd corner, I guess (and take the lives of
a couple of crowd spectators as well). ;-)

Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25
Pencil art    : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
Free car sim  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

The main difference comes from the way the surface interacts with the
tires. On tarmac, the grip should increase up to a certain angle, and
then slowly decrease. On loose surfaces, though, since a lot of force is
generated by the material that is thrown away, the forces also should
obtain a component that depends not only on the angle but also on the
magnitude of the slip velocity (due to a similar principle a jet engine
works on). This should indeed stablize the car a lot, and that's why the
real drivers can get away with huge drift angles (which incidentally,
due to the theory presented above produce the highest amount of lateral
grip) on such surfaces.

On tarmac, this stabilizing force seems to be too high, though, as
spinning the car fully, though possible, is very hard. But then again,
what the real guys do on tarmac is also sometimes beyond belief!

I am not saying that CMR2.0 is as realistic as GPL, but it does cover
the aspects of car handling on loose surfaces very nicely, with both
wheelspin and lock modelled well, and also sports what seems to be a
rather proper rigid body model (only really apparent if you raise the
car height). For example, stabilizing the RWD cars upon braking with
additional throttle input with split axis pedals a la GPL indeed works,
and the opposite is true for FWD cars.

-Gregor

Maybe on tarmac. But the loose surfaces seem to be about right.

-Gregor

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:51:17 +0100, Gregor Veble

Cool. Should remember that when testing a rally car for Racer one day.

Certainly is!

I must say I enjoyed playing the demo indeed, esp. after a few tries
and I could actually catch up a bit with the arcade cars. Has made me
think of AI in Racer more. Ouch. So much work to do. :)
But would be fun.

Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25
Pencil art    : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
Free car sim  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

Well, I completely agree too. RC is better from this point of view, closer
to a real sim especially on tarmac.
But CMR2 is still a lot of fun, and I've been playing with the demo for
weeks, now. Not that easy only with a keyboard, BTW.
2'42" in Australia, 2'53" in Sweden, 2'57" in GB ... Am I far from what you
can do, you steering-wheeled people ?

Eric

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:52:23 +0100, Gregor Veble

The slide around *every* corner in rally racing (on loose surface)?

Well, it's become almost an old r.a.s. saying that even a F1 car slides
around at the edge of grip, only that it's measured in a couple of
degrees in that case. A rally car will produce much higher optimal
angles due to the nature of the surface (see another post of mine in
this thread). Once you really push hard in CMR 2.0, you'll notice that
huge slides are not the fastest way around the track anyway; moderate
slides of up to 30 degrees yaw angle are the way to go.

It's also due the track design of CMR 2.0, not the fault of the physics
model. Most of the tracks are made a bit too wide just to demonstrate
the sliding better, as this is what the public likes about rallying (and
let's face it, it's marketed mostly towards masses), but if you try the
English rally, there are some tasty stages there indeed, and sliding
around all the time will produce rather poor results.

-Gregor

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:26:33 +0100, Gregor Veble

I do enjoy CM2.0 for what it is. I just think RC2000 is a better
choice for a rally sim though. Especially after one has edited the
physics engine. In RC2000 I have to induce a slide through a corner
and it isn't automatic like in CM2.0.

RC2000 is a better choice for a rally sim, perhaps, but only due to the
great stages it has. From the demo I tried it has absolutely no feeling
of inertia, and I doubt any physics tweaking can change that. But if it
does, please do let me know.

From my experience of driving on gravel, once you're up to speed, you
don't need to induce a slide, the back will just drift out on lift-off,
unless you have a horribly understeering car. RC2000 demo will do that
as well, actually, but there is simply no room for it on the narrow
stages. I just think that in CMR 2.0 the feel of inertia during the
attitude changes is better.

-Gregor