rec.autos.simulators

I just received the following copy of a message posted to one of the
Compuserve forums.  The only thing true about the message is that it is
(in my own not-so-humble opinion) the best AI out there for NASCAR2's
Talladega!

------------------ begin posted message -----------------------------

This is Ai at 101, or 102% they will give you a good run for your money.
The lp files have been gone over and over and I feel this is the best out
there. Loose the draft here and your in the back , being passed and left in
the dust quick. My buddy Rodney Bennett and myself have created a killer AI
here. Dont be fooled by imations.

Mike Dunn

--------------------  end posted message ----------------------------

The files in "their" AI are identical down to the last byte of the files
created by Michael E. Carver, Rob Camp, and Jon Guest of the CCG NASCAR2
AI Project's "plate1" Talladega AI version 2.0!  Mike Dunn and Rodney
Bennett are nothing but lying thieves!  Sorry to be so blunt, but I am
extremely upset at the moment.  The CCG team spent countless weeks
creating this AI masterpiece.  We offered it to the racing simulation
community as a "gift".  It was created as a "labor of love" and to have
Beavis and Butthead tout it as their own creation, craps on our efforts.

A message to Mike Dunn and Rodney Bennett:  We demand an immediate
public apology!  We also demand that you cease and desist distributing
this code as your own.  We expect an immediate "clarification" to
Compuserve members and rec.autos.simulators readers.  Also Misters Dunn
and Bennett, be forewarned that any and all private correspondence you
may have with any members of CCG may be posted to approriate newsgroups
and forums as we see fit.

A message to r.a.s. readers who do not condone piracy:  Please send a

concerns.  

Like Mike "attempted" to say, "Don't accept any imitations!"  Get the
full and genuine package (and other great NASCAR2 AI enhancements) at
The CCG NASCAR2 AI Project's website
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

r.a.s. readers, thanks for your support.  I also would like to
apologize to the r.a.s. community for making such a public forum of
this issue, but I feel that Mike and Rodney fired the first public
salvo.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hi Michael,

Nowhere in your post do you mention having contacted Mike Dunn about
the offending files, and if you had (assuming you've overlooked this),
you would have probably found this to be a simple misunderstanding.

I can assure you that Mike is one of the most honorable guys I've had
the pleasure to know, and would never do anything intentional to rip
someone off, or pass anything off as his own for someone else's hard
work.  He's not simply a ***_pen_pal (as many of us are here), but
a neighbor, a friend, and sim_competitor.

I can't speak for Rodney, because I don't know him that well, but my
point is that you shouldn't make a public posting of this nature until
all the facts are in.  I must admit a bit of bias reasoning, but who
better to speak on his behalf than his best friend?

Just a thought from one friend to another.  =)

Cheers!

Marc

<remove '_*_' before replying>

 I think there are only three varieties of AI out there, well 4 counting the
original Papyrus AI.

1. Tom Hansen AI (from the Pits)
2. CCG AI
3. Nim Cross' AI.

I occasionally see AI's posted and they typically turn out to be one of
these re-packaged.  I think most of us don't mind seeing these posted on
other sites - just try and inidicate which AI you are posting.  For me
personally, its not so much a credit thing as a help to the downloader.  You
may want to try out some different AI's to see which you like - and if you
think you have found a new one that isn't really new - then you are wasting
your time.

 I usually download them to analyze when the developer did different from
me - and in some cases there is stuff I like better.   For example, I
developed a new Darlington AI that is quite different from the one at CCG -
but I used the racing line through turn 3 and 4 - cause I found it was a
good line for me to run too.

There is no proprietary stuff in the racing lines - so I don't really think
piracy applies here.  Anyone can make a new racing line without any real
technical experience.   However, to make a good one is a lot of work.
Testing is the biggest job - since you need to run many laps after making
just a small change to see what effect it has.  The AI acts in strange ways
to small tweaks in speeds and lines.

Bottom line - try and mention which AI are you including in any patch you
provide.  It will save everyone the trouble of trying something that they
have already tried before.  Also, in some cases there may be updates to one
of the above mentioned AI's - and you may actually be including an older
version.

/TomH

On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:00:09 -0500, "Tom Hansen"

 >Tom-

I wasn't suggesting that piracy is a good thing by any means.   I was simply
offering my viewpoint that using LP files created by other authors in a
patch is ok - so long as you include where they came from in the patch
description.   Not doing so wastes everybodies time.  I also think credit
should be given - but I personally don't care too much about that.  That
certainly doesn't mean that I think it is right.  I also think that anyone
including someone elses work should ask for permission to use it.
/TomH

<snip>
% There is no proprietary stuff in the racing lines - so I don't really think
% piracy applies here.  Anyone can make a new racing line without any real
% technical experience.   However, to make a good one is a lot of work.
% Testing is the biggest job - since you need to run many laps after making
% just a small change to see what effect it has.  The AI acts in strange ways
% to small tweaks in speeds and lines.

Piracy doesn't apply here?  I am totally confused.  I can't even begin
to tell you how many hours or actual work was done to create this
version of the AI for Talladega.  I am sure you might imagine (having
done this yourself).  Were we getting mimimum wage for the hours spent
we could take a cool vacation to Talladega this year! <G>  Besides, we
don't just make minor changes here or there in the speeds or lines.  We
actually create new grooves and speeds based on replays of our efforts on
the track.  Then there is the knowledge and the skill required to know
what affects what and how to blend all of the parts into a seamless AI.

The files in question were not files that were altered one bit.  The
core LP files were byte for byte (bit for bit) exact digital copies of
files created from scratch by the CCG NASCAR2 AI Project.  Even the date
stamps of the files are identical to the package we produced.  Maybe you
don't care that a labor of love that you created is being hawked to the
unaware as being created by someone else.  But the CCG team (along with
its beta testers) do care.  We spent more than time and skill in
producing the product, we poured some love into it as well.  Then we
gladly shared it with the sim racing community for free.

% Bottom line - try and mention which AI are you including in any patch you
% provide.  It will save everyone the trouble of trying something that they
% have already tried before.  Also, in some cases there may be updates to one
% of the above mentioned AI's - and you may actually be including an older
% version.

Again, the real bottom line is, don't take someone else's work and then
claim that it was created by someone else.  This wasnt' a "patch". This
was lifting the entire AI package produced by CCG and then "marketing"
it as a package created by someone else.

The support given by the many talented sim-racers and hackers
to our hobby depends on honesty and integrity.  When anyone is allowed
to take credit for someone else's hard work and talent, this support
will begin to dwindle.  Hell, all we ever get out of all this work is
the enjoyment of sharing it with others who enjoy it, and a little
recognition.  Let's try to keep the spirits up for those who take the
time to expand our enjoyment of sim racing.  One way to do this is to
support them and recognize them for their efforts, not belittle their
contribution by pooh-pooh'ing someone else taking the credit for their
hard work.  No wonder capitalism is so popular!  <G>  At least that way
one has some money for their effort, even if the company and the boss gets
all the credit! ;-)

% >
% >I just received the following copy of a message posted to one of the
% >Compuserve forums.  The only thing true about the message is that it is
% >(in my own not-so-humble opinion) the best AI out there for NASCAR2's
% >Talladega!
% >
% >------------------ begin posted message -----------------------------
% >
% >This is Ai at 101, or 102% they will give you a good run for your money.
% >The lp files have been gone over and over and I feel this is the best out
% >there. Loose the draft here and your in the back , being passed and left in
% >the dust quick. My buddy Rodney Bennett and myself have created a killer AI
% >here. Dont be fooled by imations.
% >
% >Mike Dunn

% >
% >--------------------  end posted message ----------------------------
% >
% >The files in "their" AI are identical down to the last byte of the files
% >created by Michael E. Carver, Rob Camp, and Jon Guest of the CCG NASCAR2
% >AI Project's "plate1" Talladega AI version 2.0!  Mike Dunn and Rodney
% >Bennett are nothing but lying thieves!  Sorry to be so blunt, but I am
% >extremely upset at the moment.  The CCG team spent countless weeks
% >creating this AI masterpiece.  We offered it to the racing simulation
% >community as a "gift".  It was created as a "labor of love" and to have
% >Beavis and Butthead tout it as their own creation, craps on our efforts.
% >
% >A message to Mike Dunn and Rodney Bennett:  We demand an immediate
% >public apology!  We also demand that you cease and desist distributing
% >this code as your own.  We expect an immediate "clarification" to
% >Compuserve members and rec.autos.simulators readers.  Also Misters Dunn
% >and Bennett, be forewarned that any and all private correspondence you
% >may have with any members of CCG may be posted to approriate newsgroups
% >and forums as we see fit.
% >
% >A message to r.a.s. readers who do not condone piracy:  Please send a

% >concerns.
% >
% >Like Mike "attempted" to say, "Don't accept any imitations!"  Get the
% >full and genuine package (and other great NASCAR2 AI enhancements) at
% >The CCG NASCAR2 AI Project's website
% >http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6746/
% >
% >
% >r.a.s. readers, thanks for your support.  I also would like to
% >apologize to the r.a.s. community for making such a public forum of
% >this issue, but I feel that Mike and Rodney fired the first public
% >salvo.
% >
% >--
% >**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
% >     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

% >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% Nowhere in your post do you mention having contacted Mike Dunn about
% the offending files, and if you had (assuming you've overlooked this),
% you would have probably found this to be a simple misunderstanding.

I am still awaiting a "clear" explanation on how our files were posted as
being their creation when not a signle bit was altered in the LP files,
let alone changing the date stamp of the files.  Basically Mike just
says that Rodney sent him some AI files that Rodney was working on.
Mike sent Rodney some feedback and through this process of feedback and
"editing" the AI files, Rodney and Mike came up with the files that were
posted.  Files for which to quote Mike:  "My buddy Rodney Bennett and
myself have created a killer AI here. Dont be fooled by imations."

Maybe, just maybe, after many times of tweaking files, our's somehow got
sent as the finished product.  That's a big stretch, but if either Mike
and Rodney tell me this is what happened, I guess I will have to buy it.
I personally don't care how it happened.  It is a fact that our files
were posted publicly and were stated to be "creations" of Mike and
Rodney.  All I ask for is that Mike and Rodney publicly state that these
files were not in fact their creation.  Also that the "great AI" was in
fact the hard work and creation of the CCG NACAR2 AI Project.  This
public "statement" should be made in the forum of CIS where the original
message & files appeared and here in r.a.s. along with a URL pointing to
the CCG website where the original files can be found.

I have been in contact with both parties and this is exactly what I have
told them.  If they do this, I will consider this whole matter an
unfortunate incident and put it behind me.  

% I can assure you that Mike is one of the most honorable guys I've had
% the pleasure to know, and would never do anything intentional to rip
% someone off, or pass anything off as his own for someone else's hard
% work.  He's not simply a ***_pen_pal (as many of us are here), but
% a neighbor, a friend, and sim_competitor.

% I can't speak for Rodney, because I don't know him that well, but my
% point is that you shouldn't make a public posting of this nature until
% all the facts are in.  I must admit a bit of bias reasoning, but who
% better to speak on his behalf than his best friend?

% Just a thought from one friend to another.  =)

% Cheers!

% Marc

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=