rec.autos.simulators

Wildfire's Riverside

Steve Smit

Wildfire's Riverside

by Steve Smit » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:31:51

The wild boys at PWF have released an alleged "beta" version of
Riverside...only there's nothing beta about it.  It's close to perfect,
missing only the wonderful (and dead accurate) off-course sandstorms of Dave
Noonan's earlier conversion.  (And--yeah, I know--minus the concrete-filled
tires, a la GPL's Mexico, that were a well-known feature of the real
thing...but there are no collision planes in N2003 for such objects, so
what's the point?)

PWF's Riverside is one of the finest roadies to date, right up there, IMO,
with Gotzenburg, Oulton Park, St. Jovite, Monaco, Mosport, the Norisring,
and the mighty Nurburgring - greatest track of them all.

I only wish PWF (or *somebody*) had done the far-more-interesting 2.55-mile
"short sports car course" instead of the 2.62-mile NASCAR course, which is
prolly the track's *least* interesting iteration.  Oh well, maybe its
historical significance will spur more online road-course Cup racing.  I
seem to be the only guy left; I still race with the #121 that Gurney ran
with when he chauffeured the Wood Brothers Ford to five straight wins in the
Motor Trend 500.

Dave Henri

Wildfire's Riverside

by Dave Henri » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:47:34

"Steve Smith"
   I've seen the sportscar course done for other mods...it 'should' happen
eventually for Nr2k3.  I think you will find plenty of Road Racing, but
only with the mods.  The PWF TA and TPTCC servers usually have a fair
crowd.
dave henrie
Joachim Trens

Wildfire's Riverside

by Joachim Trens » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 02:02:33


> The wild boys at PWF have released an alleged "beta" version of
> Riverside...only there's nothing beta about it...

> I only wish PWF (or *somebody*) had done the far-more-interesting 2.55-mile
> "short sports car course" instead of the 2.62-mile NASCAR course...

The Pits have also released a new version of Riverside. Have a look, its
quite interesting.

Achim

Steve Smit

Wildfire's Riverside

by Steve Smit » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 02:21:48

So far, I find the TA mods somewhat less than compelling.  I'm sure it's
just me....


Steve Smit

Wildfire's Riverside

by Steve Smit » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 02:22:06

Thx, Achim - will have a look.



> > The wild boys at PWF have released an alleged "beta" version of
> > Riverside...only there's nothing beta about it...

> > I only wish PWF (or *somebody*) had done the far-more-interesting
2.55-mile
> > "short sports car course" instead of the 2.62-mile NASCAR course...

> The Pits have also released a new version of Riverside. Have a look, its
> quite interesting.

> Achim

Schoone

Wildfire's Riverside

by Schoone » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 02:57:09

Actually I found the same thing.  In our league there hasn't been much
interest in the TA mod at all.
Its a great mod but I don't think most of the typical oval racers and
leagues are getting much out of it :-\


> So far, I find the TA mods somewhat less than compelling.  I'm sure it's
> just me....



> > "Steve Smith"
> > > I only wish PWF (or *somebody*) had done the far-more-interesting
> > > 2.55-mile "short sports car course" instead of the 2.62-mile NASCAR
> > > course, which is prolly the track's *least* interesting iteration.  Oh
> > > well, maybe its historical significance will spur more online
> > > road-course Cup racing.  I seem to be the only guy left; I still race
> > > with the #121 that Gurney ran with when he chauffeured the Wood
> > > Brothers Ford to five straight wins in the Motor Trend 500.

> >    I've seen the sportscar course done for other mods...it 'should'
happen
> > eventually for Nr2k3.  I think you will find plenty of Road Racing, but
> > only with the mods.  The PWF TA and TPTCC servers usually have a fair
> > crowd.
> > dave henrie

Schoone

Wildfire's Riverside

by Schoone » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 02:58:01

Just tried them both and have to say I like the "classic" feel of the Pits
version the best.  Reminds you of the good old days watch the Cup cars
racing there.



> > The wild boys at PWF have released an alleged "beta" version of
> > Riverside...only there's nothing beta about it...

> > I only wish PWF (or *somebody*) had done the far-more-interesting
2.55-mile
> > "short sports car course" instead of the 2.62-mile NASCAR course...

> The Pits have also released a new version of Riverside. Have a look, its
> quite interesting.

> Achim

Steve Smit

Wildfire's Riverside

by Steve Smit » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 03:25:55

Don't get me wrong; I love the roadies...far more than the ovals.  But I
also love the Cup cars, which I have often seen on the roadies
(Bridgehampton, Riverside, Watkins Glen, etc.).  I'm just not
convinced--yet--that the T/As are as true to life as the Cup cars; the T/A's
seem much larger than life to me.  I felt the same way abt. GPL's F1s and
F2s, and drove the F2s exclusively for 3 years before finally coming to
terms w. the F1s.  As I say, I'm sure it's just me....


> Actually I found the same thing.  In our league there hasn't been much
> interest in the TA mod at all.
> Its a great mod but I don't think most of the typical oval racers and
> leagues are getting much out of it :-\



> > So far, I find the TA mods somewhat less than compelling.  I'm sure it's
> > just me....



> > > "Steve Smith"
> > > > I only wish PWF (or *somebody*) had done the far-more-interesting
> > > > 2.55-mile "short sports car course" instead of the 2.62-mile NASCAR
> > > > course, which is prolly the track's *least* interesting iteration.
Oh
> > > > well, maybe its historical significance will spur more online
> > > > road-course Cup racing.  I seem to be the only guy left; I still
race
> > > > with the #121 that Gurney ran with when he chauffeured the Wood
> > > > Brothers Ford to five straight wins in the Motor Trend 500.

> > >    I've seen the sportscar course done for other mods...it 'should'
> happen
> > > eventually for Nr2k3.  I think you will find plenty of Road Racing,
but
> > > only with the mods.  The PWF TA and TPTCC servers usually have a fair
> > > crowd.
> > > dave henrie

Steve Smit

Wildfire's Riverside

by Steve Smit » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 03:45:18

Not even close.  Mr. Olbuck's Riverside looks no more like the real
Riverside than his Lime Rock bore any resemblance to that circuit.  He just
doesn't seem to have the knack of capturing the feel of a place.  It isn't
just the obvious mistakes (he makes Riverside look like it's in Shang-ri-la;
in fact it was in the middle of a windswept desert and the only mountains on
the horizon were the San Gabriels to the north); he hasn't captured the
sights, the textures, the rhythm, the Zeitgeist or the soul of the place.
(And worst of all, he removed Dave Noonan's off-course sandstorms!)

I have the advantage of doing hundreds of laps of both Riverside and Lime
Rock when I was the Editor of Car and Driver (testing both street cars and
race cars).  The memories are indelible, as are memories of the other tracks
I drove: Bridgehampton, Laguna Seca, Watkins Glen, Sebring, Mosport,
Mid-Ohio, Willow Springs, Santa Barbara, Marlboro, Cumberland, Thompson and
the rest.  I can still visualize laps of all these tracks with my eyes
closed and be within a second or two of my actual laptimes there.  I can't
vouch for tracks I haven't driven (the only tracks I drove in Europe were
Solitude and Hockenheim), but I can tell when the tracks I that do know are
right and when they're wrong.  This Riverside ain't it.


> Thx, Achim - will have a look.




> > > The wild boys at PWF have released an alleged "beta" version of
> > > Riverside...only there's nothing beta about it...

> > > I only wish PWF (or *somebody*) had done the far-more-interesting
> 2.55-mile
> > > "short sports car course" instead of the 2.62-mile NASCAR course...

> > The Pits have also released a new version of Riverside. Have a look, its
> > quite interesting.

> > Achim

Schoone

Wildfire's Riverside

by Schoone » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 04:40:51

Yes it seemed to be less dusty through the Ss than I recall seeing on TV but
it had a more realistic feel to it than the PWF version I thought,  maybe it
was just the worn look as apposed to the PWF one that seemed newly built.

Track shape/design wise which one do you think is closer to what the real
thing was?  Seem to be some major difference between the 2 for sure,
elevation changes being one of the noticeable ones.


> Not even close.  Mr. Olbuck's Riverside looks no more like the real
> Riverside than his Lime Rock bore any resemblance to that circuit.  He
just
> doesn't seem to have the knack of capturing the feel of a place.  It isn't
> just the obvious mistakes (he makes Riverside look like it's in
Shang-ri-la;
> in fact it was in the middle of a windswept desert and the only mountains
on
> the horizon were the San Gabriels to the north); he hasn't captured the
> sights, the textures, the rhythm, the Zeitgeist or the soul of the place.
> (And worst of all, he removed Dave Noonan's off-course sandstorms!)

> I have the advantage of doing hundreds of laps of both Riverside and Lime
> Rock when I was the Editor of Car and Driver (testing both street cars and
> race cars).  The memories are indelible, as are memories of the other
tracks
> I drove: Bridgehampton, Laguna Seca, Watkins Glen, Sebring, Mosport,
> Mid-Ohio, Willow Springs, Santa Barbara, Marlboro, Cumberland, Thompson
and
> the rest.  I can still visualize laps of all these tracks with my eyes
> closed and be within a second or two of my actual laptimes there.  I can't
> vouch for tracks I haven't driven (the only tracks I drove in Europe were
> Solitude and Hockenheim), but I can tell when the tracks I that do know
are
> right and when they're wrong.  This Riverside ain't it.



> > Thx, Achim - will have a look.




> > > > The wild boys at PWF have released an alleged "beta" version of
> > > > Riverside...only there's nothing beta about it...

> > > > I only wish PWF (or *somebody*) had done the far-more-interesting
> > 2.55-mile
> > > > "short sports car course" instead of the 2.62-mile NASCAR course...

> > > The Pits have also released a new version of Riverside. Have a look,
its
> > > quite interesting.

> > > Achim

Haqsa

Wildfire's Riverside

by Haqsa » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 05:35:49

I think it's fair to say that the T/A's aren't true to life.  The specs and
physics don't match any existing racing series.  But they are still quite
fun.  I just think of it as a fictional racing series and enjoy it for what
it is.


Steve Smit

Wildfire's Riverside

by Steve Smit » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 05:54:06

It isn't just that it isn't true to an existing (or even previous) series;
it doesn't seem to quite jibe with the laws of racing physics, as I
understand them.  Maybe more like racing Landspeeders on Tatooine.


> I think it's fair to say that the T/A's aren't true to life.  The specs
and
> physics don't match any existing racing series.  But they are still quite
> fun.  I just think of it as a fictional racing series and enjoy it for
what
> it is.



> > Don't get me wrong; I love the roadies...far more than the ovals.  But I
> > also love the Cup cars, which I have often seen on the roadies
> > (Bridgehampton, Riverside, Watkins Glen, etc.).  I'm just not
> > convinced--yet--that the T/As are as true to life as the Cup cars; the
> T/A's
> > seem much larger than life to me.  I felt the same way abt. GPL's F1s
and
> > F2s, and drove the F2s exclusively for 3 years before finally coming to
> > terms w. the F1s.  As I say, I'm sure it's just me....

Jan Verschuere

Wildfire's Riverside

by Jan Verschuere » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 05:56:06

It's not just you... (and I'm glad it's not just me either <g>).

Jan.
=---

Steve Smit

Wildfire's Riverside

by Steve Smit » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 06:43:10

As Dan Olbuck stated in the readme, his version is a mishmash of several
eras, but the "distressed" track surface ("...memories of the demise of
Riverside are presented as a jagged tarmac loath with neglect, including
cracks oozing tar and slightly earthquaken [sic] bumps and grinds...grass
and dust invades the edge of the pit stalls and peeks through the concrete
and at the bottom of the walls...") seems wildly overdone, as if the track
had simply been abandoned (like Reims or Meadowdale) and not razed
altogether.  The PWF version. OTOH, looks overly sanitized.

Olbuck's version seems based on Noonan's conversion of the Papyrus track in
NASCAR Legends, which I consulted on, but most of it except the back stretch
seems way too narrow.  The elevation changes seem somewhat exaggerated (as
opposed to PWF's, which seem understated), but like so many trackmakers this
track seems sunken in its surroundings--almost as if in a shallow
trench--whereas the real track simply lay on the desert floor like a ribbon.

Turn 9 was recontoured a couple of times during the life of the track; it's
impossible to tell which variation Olbuck has chosen for his, um,
interpretation, but it was certainly a lot more steeply banked in 1970 (the
ostensible year of Olbuck's track) than it appears here.

Fans of the track should have a look at "Riverside Raceway: Palace of
Speed," a 346-page paen of praise self-published by*** Wallen (Box10561,
Glendale AZ, 85318) with hundreds of stats & photos.  'Spensive but worth
it.


> Yes it seemed to be less dusty through the Ss than I recall seeing on TV
but
> it had a more realistic feel to it than the PWF version I thought,  maybe
it
> was just the worn look as apposed to the PWF one that seemed newly built.

> Track shape/design wise which one do you think is closer to what the real
> thing was?  Seem to be some major difference between the 2 for sure,
> elevation changes being one of the noticeable ones.



> > Not even close.  Mr. Olbuck's Riverside looks no more like the real
> > Riverside than his Lime Rock bore any resemblance to that circuit.  He
> just
> > doesn't seem to have the knack of capturing the feel of a place.  It
isn't
> > just the obvious mistakes (he makes Riverside look like it's in
> Shang-ri-la;
> > in fact it was in the middle of a windswept desert and the only
mountains
> on
> > the horizon were the San Gabriels to the north); he hasn't captured the
> > sights, the textures, the rhythm, the Zeitgeist or the soul of the
place.
> > (And worst of all, he removed Dave Noonan's off-course sandstorms!)

> > I have the advantage of doing hundreds of laps of both Riverside and
Lime
> > Rock when I was the Editor of Car and Driver (testing both street cars
and
> > race cars).  The memories are indelible, as are memories of the other
> tracks
> > I drove: Bridgehampton, Laguna Seca, Watkins Glen, Sebring, Mosport,
> > Mid-Ohio, Willow Springs, Santa Barbara, Marlboro, Cumberland, Thompson
> and
> > the rest.  I can still visualize laps of all these tracks with my eyes
> > closed and be within a second or two of my actual laptimes there.  I
can't
> > vouch for tracks I haven't driven (the only tracks I drove in Europe
were
> > Solitude and Hockenheim), but I can tell when the tracks I that do know
> are
> > right and when they're wrong.  This Riverside ain't it.



> > > Thx, Achim - will have a look.




> > > > > The wild boys at PWF have released an alleged "beta" version of
> > > > > Riverside...only there's nothing beta about it...

> > > > > I only wish PWF (or *somebody*) had done the far-more-interesting
> > > 2.55-mile
> > > > > "short sports car course" instead of the 2.62-mile NASCAR
course...

> > > > The Pits have also released a new version of Riverside. Have a look,
> its
> > > > quite interesting.

> > > > Achim

Dave Henri

Wildfire's Riverside

by Dave Henri » Mon, 22 Mar 2004 06:59:50



    No WONDER that young kid does so well in our league...:)


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