Maybe the new Cadillac open top sports car can repair the damage. Then
again, looking at the Mustang, maybe not.
M
I can see where you're coming from, but the big factor is your car
isnt travelling fast enough. Cars can feel very stable on the track
when going slower than their potential, which very few drivers reach.
To reach it you have to be driving at 100% of the cars capability,
which is out of reach to mos drivers because of fear, skill, or
insurance! :)
When you're really racing hard, you have to tread a fine line between
smooth flowing lines, and being on the ragged edge. And I dont mean
powerslidig out of every turn etc etc, I mean keeping the car
teetering between oversteer and neutral going around a fast bend etc
etc. Some games such as TOCA and TOCA 2 exaggerate this slightly, but
make no mistake, balancing one of those cars is a tricky act,
especially when your tyres and wheels are only a touch over 8" wide!
While your car is nicely modified, and no doubt handles well, it's not
being pushed to its limits and nor is the driver. That is what
separates us from the professionals, and our cars from real racecars.
--
Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors
Alfa Romeo - Super Touring - Club Cars
http://fullspeed.to/astc
Australian Super Touring Championship
News and Information
Hehe, we were TRYING to outbrake eachother.
Remco
>> >hehe... I bet you're glad they don't have these cars in GPL, huh Remco??
>> Hehe, actually....Once I drove that Terra on the Club Circuit of
>> Zandvoort. (Is a short version of the one in GPL). It was to get used
>> to the track, prior to testing a FF1600. We were not allowed to drive
>> at full speed....yeah right, I had to, if I wanted to keep up with the
>> rest. Most people were driving sportcars or fast saloons,
>> There was one other slow car, a plumbers vance, inclusive ladders. We
>> both had a lot of fun trying to outbrake eachother, and trying to keep
>> up with the rest. The rest didn't understand us afterwards, that much
>> fun at such a slow speed. Hehe, still getting a huge grin when I think
>> about that.
>> Remco
As for tracks, I have raced at these that I can remember:
Road America (MY FAVORITE forever!!!!) - usually with the local Alfa Club
too!
Riverside (Turn 9 was awesome) again with the Alfa Club
Blackhawk Farms (owner was in the pavement business, so you never knew what
road surface you'd be on from one turn to the next)
Grattan
Lake Geneva Speedway
Rockford Speedway
US 30 Speedway
IRP (the other track, not the 500 one)
Milwaukee (they do have sort of a road course in the infield)
Utica Kart Track
various other large go-kart tracks
Portage Grand Prix (street AutoX in Indiana)
Lincoln GP (street AutoX at Capitol in Illinois)
Jordan Ford/Toyota GP (street AutoX in Missewaga - ????? Indiana)
and many, many other places and tracks I have forgotten.
So please trust me on this Nathan, I have been around (the track, ha ha) a
few times in my 44 years. And I also used to be able to beat "Crazy" Peter
"PD" Cunningham, my old buddy from Milwaukee who went from AutoX to SCCA
Rally, then Road Racing for King Honda, then to NSX sponsored by Acura, and
now in the PTG BMW M3's (which happen to be in the SCGT game).
Oh, and Nathan, I do have tires/wheels slightly over 8" wide - I have Toyo
Proxy T1+ (235/40/17) mounted on Ronal G1001 (17X8.5) alloys.
> >vehicle (compared to a real race car), my car was simply NOT that loose
on
> >the track as most games make them out to, except for when I had to brake
> >hard in an emergency and while turning, when I had to avoid that C5 Vette
> >mentioned above. My car felt nice and stable, and near neutral in the
turns.
> >I think that perhaps the games exaggerate cars handling to make it more
> >exciting for us, but instead make it less real for me.
> Mike,
> I can see where you're coming from, but the big factor is your car
> isnt travelling fast enough. Cars can feel very stable on the track
> when going slower than their potential, which very few drivers reach.
> To reach it you have to be driving at 100% of the cars capability,
> which is out of reach to mos drivers because of fear, skill, or
> insurance! :)
> When you're really racing hard, you have to tread a fine line between
> smooth flowing lines, and being on the ragged edge. And I dont mean
> powerslidig out of every turn etc etc, I mean keeping the car
> teetering between oversteer and neutral going around a fast bend etc
> etc. Some games such as TOCA and TOCA 2 exaggerate this slightly, but
> make no mistake, balancing one of those cars is a tricky act,
> especially when your tyres and wheels are only a touch over 8" wide!
> While your car is nicely modified, and no doubt handles well, it's not
> being pushed to its limits and nor is the driver. That is what
> separates us from the professionals, and our cars from real racecars.
> --
> Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors
> Alfa Romeo - Super Touring - Club Cars
> http://fullspeed.to/astc
> Australian Super Touring Championship
> News and Information
I've been to almost all the places you have too... also from a
autocrossing perspective. Big fun.
And if you've beaten Peter Cunningham, trust me folks, Mike is doing
pretty damn well. As Mike said, Pete is a pro and one of the best you'll
find at going fast in *anything* at *any course* be it auto-x, or road
course.
Mike, were have you beaten PD?
-_Dave
> Nathan, I fully understand what you are saying, and agree, except for one
> point. I WAS pushing my car to 100% - I was racing it on a real racetrack
> and pushing it hard. In the sweepers I had the car at its limit, that fine
> line you were talking about between under/oversteer. And the point where I
> had to brake hard to evade that Vette was as the end of the straight where I
> was hitting near 130mph. I have been racing my cars since 1974, so I figure
> that I am not your average driver. And I have a large room full of trophies
> from those good years. So again, except for where my car got a bit wobbly
> under extreme emergency braking, I kept the car in good balance (as I AM a
> smooth driver), and still feel that most games exaggerate the car's handling
> to make an armchair racer feel like he might be experiencing a conception of
> what might be real racing.
> As for tracks, I have raced at these that I can remember:
> Road America (MY FAVORITE forever!!!!) - usually with the local Alfa Club
> too!
> Riverside (Turn 9 was awesome) again with the Alfa Club
> Blackhawk Farms (owner was in the pavement business, so you never knew what
> road surface you'd be on from one turn to the next)
> Grattan
> Lake Geneva Speedway
> Rockford Speedway
> US 30 Speedway
> IRP (the other track, not the 500 one)
> Milwaukee (they do have sort of a road course in the infield)
> Utica Kart Track
> various other large go-kart tracks
> Portage Grand Prix (street AutoX in Indiana)
> Lincoln GP (street AutoX at Capitol in Illinois)
> Jordan Ford/Toyota GP (street AutoX in Missewaga - ????? Indiana)
> and many, many other places and tracks I have forgotten.
> So please trust me on this Nathan, I have been around (the track, ha ha) a
> few times in my 44 years. And I also used to be able to beat "Crazy" Peter
> "PD" Cunningham, my old buddy from Milwaukee who went from AutoX to SCCA
> Rally, then Road Racing for King Honda, then to NSX sponsored by Acura, and
> now in the PTG BMW M3's (which happen to be in the SCGT game).
> Oh, and Nathan, I do have tires/wheels slightly over 8" wide - I have Toyo
> Proxy T1+ (235/40/17) mounted on Ronal G1001 (17X8.5) alloys.
> > On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:00:41 -0700, "Mike Zamarocy"
> > >vehicle (compared to a real race car), my car was simply NOT that loose
> on
> > >the track as most games make them out to, except for when I had to brake
> > >hard in an emergency and while turning, when I had to avoid that C5 Vette
> > >mentioned above. My car felt nice and stable, and near neutral in the
> turns.
> > >I think that perhaps the games exaggerate cars handling to make it more
> > >exciting for us, but instead make it less real for me.
> > Mike,
> > I can see where you're coming from, but the big factor is your car
> > isnt travelling fast enough. Cars can feel very stable on the track
> > when going slower than their potential, which very few drivers reach.
> > To reach it you have to be driving at 100% of the cars capability,
> > which is out of reach to mos drivers because of fear, skill, or
> > insurance! :)
> > When you're really racing hard, you have to tread a fine line between
> > smooth flowing lines, and being on the ragged edge. And I dont mean
> > powerslidig out of every turn etc etc, I mean keeping the car
> > teetering between oversteer and neutral going around a fast bend etc
> > etc. Some games such as TOCA and TOCA 2 exaggerate this slightly, but
> > make no mistake, balancing one of those cars is a tricky act,
> > especially when your tyres and wheels are only a touch over 8" wide!
> > While your car is nicely modified, and no doubt handles well, it's not
> > being pushed to its limits and nor is the driver. That is what
> > separates us from the professionals, and our cars from real racecars.
> > --
> > Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors
> > Alfa Romeo - Super Touring - Club Cars
> > http://fullspeed.to/astc
> > Australian Super Touring Championship
> > News and Information
But back then Peter and I had been good friends too. Hell, I trusted him so
much, that when he moved on to road racing in Showroom Stock driving Kent
McCord's (from Adam 12 TV show) old RX7 at Road America- I let them remove
my rear axle to use, as he bent his in practice. It was the only race I
sweated bullets that I was not even driving in (it was nearly a 4 hour drive
home from there). And as it was, the rear seals started to leak, so PD
started using a slower black Mustang in front of him for breaking help going
into Turn 5 cause my rear shoes were now soaking wet. But then in 1984 I
moved to SoCal and we lost touch, and in 1987 I quit racing. During that
time, Peter went to driving Honda's and getting sponsored by King Honda -
the Mugen Importer, and got noticed. That led to sponsorship eventually from
Honda, then Acura and a drive in the NSX. And now he is with BMW! I got to
see and talk to him a couple of years ago when I flew in to Road America,
and he did remember me and we had a few moments of nostalgia. But at the F1
GT races at Laguna, the only thing I could do was get a wave from him, and
he tossed me a SCGT hat. Damn, I wanted the M3 hat, oh well . . .
> I've been to almost all the places you have too... also from a
> autocrossing perspective. Big fun.
> And if you've beaten Peter Cunningham, trust me folks, Mike is doing
> pretty damn well. As Mike said, Pete is a pro and one of the best you'll
> find at going fast in *anything* at *any course* be it auto-x, or road
> course.
> Mike, were have you beaten PD?
> -_Dave
> > Nathan, I fully understand what you are saying, and agree, except for
one
> > point. I WAS pushing my car to 100% - I was racing it on a real
racetrack
> > and pushing it hard. In the sweepers I had the car at its limit, that
fine
> > line you were talking about between under/oversteer. And the point where
I
> > had to brake hard to evade that Vette was as the end of the straight
where I
> > was hitting near 130mph. I have been racing my cars since 1974, so I
figure
> > that I am not your average driver. And I have a large room full of
trophies
> > from those good years. So again, except for where my car got a bit
wobbly
> > under extreme emergency braking, I kept the car in good balance (as I AM
a
> > smooth driver), and still feel that most games exaggerate the car's
handling
> > to make an armchair racer feel like he might be experiencing a
conception of
> > what might be real racing.
> > As for tracks, I have raced at these that I can remember:
> > Road America (MY FAVORITE forever!!!!) - usually with the local Alfa
Club
> > too!
> > Riverside (Turn 9 was awesome) again with the Alfa Club
> > Blackhawk Farms (owner was in the pavement business, so you never knew
what
> > road surface you'd be on from one turn to the next)
> > Grattan
> > Lake Geneva Speedway
> > Rockford Speedway
> > US 30 Speedway
> > IRP (the other track, not the 500 one)
> > Milwaukee (they do have sort of a road course in the infield)
> > Utica Kart Track
> > various other large go-kart tracks
> > Portage Grand Prix (street AutoX in Indiana)
> > Lincoln GP (street AutoX at Capitol in Illinois)
> > Jordan Ford/Toyota GP (street AutoX in Missewaga - ????? Indiana)
> > and many, many other places and tracks I have forgotten.
> > So please trust me on this Nathan, I have been around (the track, ha ha)
a
> > few times in my 44 years. And I also used to be able to beat "Crazy"
Peter
> > "PD" Cunningham, my old buddy from Milwaukee who went from AutoX to SCCA
> > Rally, then Road Racing for King Honda, then to NSX sponsored by Acura,
and
> > now in the PTG BMW M3's (which happen to be in the SCGT game).
> > Oh, and Nathan, I do have tires/wheels slightly over 8" wide - I have
Toyo
> > Proxy T1+ (235/40/17) mounted on Ronal G1001 (17X8.5) alloys.
> > > On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:00:41 -0700, "Mike Zamarocy"
> > > >vehicle (compared to a real race car), my car was simply NOT that
loose
> > on
> > > >the track as most games make them out to, except for when I had to
brake
> > > >hard in an emergency and while turning, when I had to avoid that C5
Vette
> > > >mentioned above. My car felt nice and stable, and near neutral in the
> > turns.
> > > >I think that perhaps the games exaggerate cars handling to make it
more
> > > >exciting for us, but instead make it less real for me.
> > > Mike,
> > > I can see where you're coming from, but the big factor is your car
> > > isnt travelling fast enough. Cars can feel very stable on the track
> > > when going slower than their potential, which very few drivers reach.
> > > To reach it you have to be driving at 100% of the cars capability,
> > > which is out of reach to mos drivers because of fear, skill, or
> > > insurance! :)
> > > When you're really racing hard, you have to tread a fine line between
> > > smooth flowing lines, and being on the ragged edge. And I dont mean
> > > powerslidig out of every turn etc etc, I mean keeping the car
> > > teetering between oversteer and neutral going around a fast bend etc
> > > etc. Some games such as TOCA and TOCA 2 exaggerate this slightly, but
> > > make no mistake, balancing one of those cars is a tricky act,
> > > especially when your tyres and wheels are only a touch over 8" wide!
> > > While your car is nicely modified, and no doubt handles well, it's not
> > > being pushed to its limits and nor is the driver. That is what
> > > separates us from the professionals, and our cars from real racecars.
> > > --
> > > Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors
> > > Alfa Romeo - Super Touring - Club Cars
> > > http://fullspeed.to/astc
> > > Australian Super Touring Championship
> > > News and Information
> --
> Dave Schwabe
> The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
> http://users.wi.net/~schwabe
How do you outbreak someone? Have a better crash than them?
<G>
--
Cheers!
Graeme Nash
(Brett Lunger, post-crash)
http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk
ICQ# 11257824
___________________________________________________________________________
"My forward mobility became impaired"
well... from the GPL drivers!! :-)
-_Dave
PS -- All other sims are included in the last statement! :-)
> Because Peter was in Milwaukee, Wisc - and I was from Steger, ILL - we
> didn't get to race against each other a whole lot. But There were special
> events that many of us came from all over to attend. The Portage Grand Prix
> in Portage, Indiana was always the best. It started as a 1 day street Autox,
> and in 2 years turned into a week long festival (complete with carnival,
> Queen crowning, and more). Peter and I both had Mazda RX7's at the time, and
> until I built mine up into Street Prepared, I beat him every year at
> Portage - but we were REAL close (fractions of a second). There were also
> some events that were part of the Tri-State Championship Series (Chicago
> SCCA was a member club of this) that Peter and Mike Stern (Jensen Healey)
> and other Wisconsinites would come down to join - where Peter and I would
> mix it up a bit. After awhile, there were more Street Grand Prix's in
> Indiana and Illinois - and those too I won my class and was faster than
> Peter, but he was in stock class and I now was in Street Prepared. I won my
> SP class 4 years in a row too in Tri-State, so did quite well. And when it
> came for track events (the ones I listed), I never lost a one. I had a
> natural talent then, and the balls to go with it. But I am a wee bit rusty
> now, as well as older. So needless to say, it took a day and a half to get
> back to "speed". I don't think I could be as daring again - being older, car
> more expensive, and now wanting to be able to drive home - but I do still
> push as much as I can to the limits (within reason).
> But back then Peter and I had been good friends too. Hell, I trusted him so
> much, that when he moved on to road racing in Showroom Stock driving Kent
> McCord's (from Adam 12 TV show) old RX7 at Road America- I let them remove
> my rear axle to use, as he bent his in practice. It was the only race I
> sweated bullets that I was not even driving in (it was nearly a 4 hour drive
> home from there). And as it was, the rear seals started to leak, so PD
> started using a slower black Mustang in front of him for breaking help going
> into Turn 5 cause my rear shoes were now soaking wet. But then in 1984 I
> moved to SoCal and we lost touch, and in 1987 I quit racing. During that
> time, Peter went to driving Honda's and getting sponsored by King Honda -
> the Mugen Importer, and got noticed. That led to sponsorship eventually from
> Honda, then Acura and a drive in the NSX. And now he is with BMW! I got to
> see and talk to him a couple of years ago when I flew in to Road America,
> and he did remember me and we had a few moments of nostalgia. But at the F1
> GT races at Laguna, the only thing I could do was get a wave from him, and
> he tossed me a SCGT hat. Damn, I wanted the M3 hat, oh well . . .
> schwabe <schw...@wi.net> wrote in message news:371C88ED.6599FE33@wi.net...
> > Mike! Man, here you go again! :-)
> > I've been to almost all the places you have too... also from a
> > autocrossing perspective. Big fun.
> > And if you've beaten Peter Cunningham, trust me folks, Mike is doing
> > pretty damn well. As Mike said, Pete is a pro and one of the best you'll
> > find at going fast in *anything* at *any course* be it auto-x, or road
> > course.
> > Mike, were have you beaten PD?
> > -_Dave
> > Mike Zamarocy wrote:
> > > Nathan, I fully understand what you are saying, and agree, except for
> one
> > > point. I WAS pushing my car to 100% - I was racing it on a real
> racetrack
> > > and pushing it hard. In the sweepers I had the car at its limit, that
> fine
> > > line you were talking about between under/oversteer. And the point where
> I
> > > had to brake hard to evade that Vette was as the end of the straight
> where I
> > > was hitting near 130mph. I have been racing my cars since 1974, so I
> figure
> > > that I am not your average driver. And I have a large room full of
> trophies
> > > from those good years. So again, except for where my car got a bit
> wobbly
> > > under extreme emergency braking, I kept the car in good balance (as I AM
> a
> > > smooth driver), and still feel that most games exaggerate the car's
> handling
> > > to make an armchair racer feel like he might be experiencing a
> conception of
> > > what might be real racing.
> > > As for tracks, I have raced at these that I can remember:
> > > Road America (MY FAVORITE forever!!!!) - usually with the local Alfa
> Club
> > > too!
> > > Riverside (Turn 9 was awesome) again with the Alfa Club
> > > Blackhawk Farms (owner was in the pavement business, so you never knew
> what
> > > road surface you'd be on from one turn to the next)
> > > Grattan
> > > Lake Geneva Speedway
> > > Rockford Speedway
> > > US 30 Speedway
> > > IRP (the other track, not the 500 one)
> > > Milwaukee (they do have sort of a road course in the infield)
> > > Utica Kart Track
> > > various other large go-kart tracks
> > > Portage Grand Prix (street AutoX in Indiana)
> > > Lincoln GP (street AutoX at Capitol in Illinois)
> > > Jordan Ford/Toyota GP (street AutoX in Missewaga - ????? Indiana)
> > > and many, many other places and tracks I have forgotten.
> > > So please trust me on this Nathan, I have been around (the track, ha ha)
> a
> > > few times in my 44 years. And I also used to be able to beat "Crazy"
> Peter
> > > "PD" Cunningham, my old buddy from Milwaukee who went from AutoX to SCCA
> > > Rally, then Road Racing for King Honda, then to NSX sponsored by Acura,
> and
> > > now in the PTG BMW M3's (which happen to be in the SCGT game).
> > > Oh, and Nathan, I do have tires/wheels slightly over 8" wide - I have
> Toyo
> > > Proxy T1+ (235/40/17) mounted on Ronal G1001 (17X8.5) alloys.
> > > Nathan Wong <alfac...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> > > news:371b2964.11837224@news1.nectar.com.au...
> > > > On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:00:41 -0700, "Mike Zamarocy"
> > > > <***mhdav...@earthlink.net***> wrote:
> > > > >vehicle (compared to a real race car), my car was simply NOT that
> loose
> > > on
> > > > >the track as most games make them out to, except for when I had to
> brake
> > > > >hard in an emergency and while turning, when I had to avoid that C5
> Vette
> > > > >mentioned above. My car felt nice and stable, and near neutral in the
> > > turns.
> > > > >I think that perhaps the games exaggerate cars handling to make it
> more
> > > > >exciting for us, but instead make it less real for me.
> > > > Mike,
> > > > I can see where you're coming from, but the big factor is your car
> > > > isnt travelling fast enough. Cars can feel very stable on the track
> > > > when going slower than their potential, which very few drivers reach.
> > > > To reach it you have to be driving at 100% of the cars capability,
> > > > which is out of reach to mos drivers because of fear, skill, or
> > > > insurance! :)
> > > > When you're really racing hard, you have to tread a fine line between
> > > > smooth flowing lines, and being on the ragged edge. And I dont mean
> > > > powerslidig out of every turn etc etc, I mean keeping the car
> > > > teetering between oversteer and neutral going around a fast bend etc
> > > > etc. Some games such as TOCA and TOCA 2 exaggerate this slightly, but
> > > > make no mistake, balancing one of those cars is a tricky act,
> > > > especially when your tyres and wheels are only a touch over 8" wide!
> > > > While your car is nicely modified, and no doubt handles well, it's not
> > > > being pushed to its limits and nor is the driver. That is what
> > > > separates us from the professionals, and our cars from real racecars.
> > > > --
> > > > Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors
> > > > Alfa Romeo - Super Touring - Club Cars
> > > > AlfaC...@pobox.com V8Supercars - Formula One - CART
> > > > http://fullspeed.to/astc
> > > > Australian Super Touring Championship
> > > > News and Information
> > --
> > Dave Schwabe
> > The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
> > http://users.wi.net/~schwabe
> How do you outbreak someone? Have a better crash than them?
> <G>
> --
> Cheers!
> Graeme Nash
> (Brett Lunger, post-crash)
> http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk
> ICQ# 11257824
> ___________________________________________________________________________
> "My forward mobility became impaired"
Quite often he's a throttle man. In offshore racing there are often
three. navigator, throttle man and pilot. you have to constantly trim the
throttle when there are waves. On the gas in the wave, off the gas in the
air. throttle also has a big effect on the boat's attitude in the water,
whether it is planing or not. Wheee ha.
Stephen
--Dave
> :>
> :> Im not sure but is this the type of racing that requires a co-pilot on the
> :> boat ? He's acting the same as a Rally driver, but he indicates to the
> :> driver with his arm (indicating where to go) the river. Mostly because the
> :> race track is flat (well it's water ! <g>) so it's difficult to see where to
> :> go in those tight courses.
> :>
> Quite often he's a throttle man. In offshore racing there are often
> three. navigator, throttle man and pilot. you have to constantly trim the
> throttle when there are waves. On the gas in the wave, off the gas in the
> air. throttle also has a big effect on the boat's attitude in the water,
> whether it is planing or not. Wheee ha.
> Stephen
