rec.autos.simulators

by **idav** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:03:41

Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descript layout
that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some
pencil pusher somewhere ***ed this up royally by trying to be all things to
everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its history and
memories well alone and this was one of them.....

Here's to you Jim.

Ian.

by **Jonny Hodgso** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:11:34

> Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descript layout
> that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some
> pencil pusher somewhere ***ed this up royally by trying to be all things to
> everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its history and
> memories well alone and this was one of them.....

Ooh, I dunno - there were some great braking scraps into what
should have been called the Adelaide hairpin. Braking is about
the only place you can overtake in F1 these days, so well done
whoever decided to include that!

Jonny

by **Alex Kihuran** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:38:19

I never thought of Hockenheim as a track with soul. It used to be just
straights and chicanes with a little twisty part at the end. What's so great
about that? Not much elevation change, boring design, some good drafting and
overtaking oppurtunities though.

Thanks,
Alex

by **jason moy** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:58:19

Actually, in the 70's it was a track with 2 long straights connected
by a moderate speed curve and a little twisty part at the end. =)

IIRC, it actually only had 1 chicane (between the straights? I
forget...) until the 90's. It obviously didn't have the Senna chicane
until 94 or 95.

Jason

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:38:19 GMT, "Alex Kihurani"

>I never thought of Hockenheim as a track with soul. It used to be just
>straights and chicanes with a little twisty part at the end. What's so great
>about that? Not much elevation change, boring design, some good drafting and
>overtaking oppurtunities though.

>Thanks,
>Alex

>> Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descript
>layout
>> that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some
>> pencil pusher somewhere ***ed this up royally by trying to be all things
>to
>> everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its history and
>> memories well alone and this was one of them.....

>> Here's to you Jim.

>> Ian.

by **Dave Henri** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:16:59

I agree with Alex, Hock was, after all, a test track, that somehow got
bumped up to world class status. From a sim driver's viewpoint, tracks like
Hungary and A1 ring have far more appeal and from a Fan
viewpoint.......sorry I'm having trouble here thinking of a modern F1 track
that has appeal, where passing is possible in more than just one special
location.....
Ask me again next month...maybe I'll have thought of one by then......
dave henrie
My first thought when I heard/saw the incar footage was they cut the first
straight too soon. I know they couldn't cut any trees, but if they would
have made the first straight long enough for full power, and then added a
very sharp turn(al la the Adelaide hairpin at Magny Cour...) they might have
added an additional passing zone to the other hairpin they built near the
back.
dh

by **ymenar** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:27:48

> Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descript
layout
> that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about.

Sorry I don't consider a long loop that was cut by three chicanes to be
"what F1 used to be all about".

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
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by **ymenar** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:28:58

> Actually, in the 70's it was a track with 2 long straights connected
> by a moderate speed curve and a little twisty part at the end. =)

> IIRC, it actually only had 1 chicane (between the straights? I
> forget...) until the 90's. It obviously didn't have the Senna chicane
> until 94 or 95.

Again, Forix is here to tell the truth ;-)

http://www.forix.com/asp/nc.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=7008&c=0

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **The Carvalho Famil** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:42:54

I was a little surprised to see how hard it is to pass on the new layout. I
suspect the teams were a little surprised as well. It seemed that if your car
had enough mechanical and aero grip for the twisty bits you could hold off those
with straight-line speed. None of the straights were quite long enough to
overcome the advantage another car might have coming off the corners. It may
also have been difficult to get close to the car ahead coming off a corner.
Jim

> Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descript layout
> that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some
> pencil pusher somewhere ***ed this up royally by trying to be all things to
> everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its history and
> memories well alone and this was one of them.....

> Here's to you Jim.

> Ian.

by **Magnus Svensso** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:45:26

Obviously you recall wrong. The two chicanes on either side of the
loop(Clark and Senna) were added in 1970. And I wouldn't really call
Ostkurve 'moderate speed', it was flat-out with F2's in the late
70's...

The bremskurve, the chicane before Ostkurve were added a couple of
years after Patrick Depailler's fatal accident there in 1980. I think
it at first was a makeshift tyrebarrier-chicane(and incidentally the
place where Salazar and Piquet had their little infamous "argument",
where they let the fists do the talking).

by **Iain Mackenzi** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 22:46:17

Agreed, and the drivers used to rate the old Hock as one of the most boring
tracks to drive and race on I seem to remember from some mag. The new one
certainly seemed to produce some exciting moments last weekend.
Iain

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by **MichaelJ** » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 01:48:30

But isn't that the whole problem with F1 cars - not the tracks?

If you sat down with a blank piece of paper it would be difficult to
devise a racing formula in which staying close to another car and
passing would be more difficult.

- Michael

by **jason moy** » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 06:15:32

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:28:58 -0400, "ymenard"

>Again, Forix is here to tell the truth ;-)

>http://www.forix.com/asp/nc.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=7008&c=0

Great site.

Didn't realize people were mutilating tracks before the 80's. =)

Jason

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 12:25:06

> On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:28:58 -0400, "ymenard"

> >Again, Forix is here to tell the truth ;-)

> >http://www.forix.com/asp/nc.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=7008&c=0

> Great site.

> Didn't realize people were mutilating tracks before the 80's. =)

> Jason

I'm not trying to be a d*ck, but the only reason tracks have benn changed is
to keep drivers from being killed due to the cars being so damn quick and
fast. It's not like they are out to ruin anyone's fun. Dead drivers would do
that.

David G Fisher

by **John Pancoas** » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 12:41:21

It's F1, there's not supposed to be any passing :)

John

> I was a little surprised to see how hard it is to pass on the new layout.
I
> suspect the teams were a little surprised as well. It seemed that if your
car
> had enough mechanical and aero grip for the twisty bits you could hold off
those
> with straight-line speed. None of the straights were quite long enough to
> overcome the advantage another car might have coming off the corners. It
may
> also have been difficult to get close to the car ahead coming off a
corner.
> Jim

> > Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descript
layout
> > that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some
> > pencil pusher somewhere ***ed this up royally by trying to be all
things to
> > everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its history
and
> > memories well alone and this was one of them.....

> > Here's to you Jim.

> > Ian.

by **jason moy** » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 19:42:07

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 03:25:06 GMT, "David G Fisher"

>I'm not trying to be a d*ck, but the only reason tracks have benn changed is
>to keep drivers from being killed due to the cars being so damn quick and
>fast. It's not like they are out to ruin anyone's fun. Dead drivers would do
>that.

I dunno, I've always been a fan of "fix the cars not the tracks".
Just MHO. I'm not opposed to increasing runoff areas, using tire
barriers, increasing the number and training of marshals, etc, but
chicanes are absolutely useless. Monza and Hockenheim were never
particularly interesting circuits, but both had personalities that are
now buried deep in the history books. The changes made at both
circuits are the F1 equivalent of adding chicanes to Daytona. If
there wre a chicane before turn 1 at Pocono the argument over armco vs
concrete would be moot and driver safety would be increased
exponentially.

I think if Ayrton Senna or Gilles Villeneuve were alive, they'd scoff
at the chicanes that were added to the corners they were killed at.

Until the 80's most F1 deaths were the result of badly designed cars,
fires, poor marshalling, a lack of runoff/barriers, and poorly
installed barriers. Since then most fatal/near-fatal accidents could
have been prevented via the HANS device (Senna, Hakkinen, etc). Some,
like Villeneuve's, are unpreventable as best I can tell, since the
main culprit there was reckless driving.

Jason

rec.autos.simulators

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

The new Hockenheim has lost its soul