rec.autos.simulators

Car physics: ARBs and load transfer (calling Doug M and other gurus of RAS)

Gregor Vebl

Car physics: ARBs and load transfer (calling Doug M and other gurus of RAS)

by Gregor Vebl » Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:30:10

Hi Simon,

now that's interesting. Just of curiosity, how much was the camber on
the front wheels? Also, did the camber get out of shape with suspension
travel?

-Gregor


> Sierra Cosworth Race car.  1000lb springs on the front... dire
> understeer.  Fitted 1200lb springs and the understeer went away????
> Now that information isolated would be argued.  If I posted a message
> saying "how can I reduce the understeer of my race car" and someone
> said "increase the front springs", they would be laughed at.  But they
> would have also (in this case) have been right.

Jonny Hodgso

Car physics: ARBs and load transfer (calling Doug M and other gurus of RAS)

by Jonny Hodgso » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:22:43



Oops, I've just hit the point where I've forgotten what we were
disagreeing about! :-) ('cos it's not this...)

Erm... is it to do with how this compares to achieving the same,
increased roll rate with springs?  Now that I'm thinking about it,
actually this is reminiscent of my empirical approach which says that
front bar controls corner entry, rear bar controls corner exit...

So what was the original question?!?

Regards,
Jonny

Simon de Ban

Car physics: ARBs and load transfer (calling Doug M and other gurus of RAS)

by Simon de Ban » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:38:45


> Hi Simon,

> now that's interesting. Just of curiosity, how much was the camber on
> the front wheels? Also, did the camber get out of shape with suspension
> travel?

> -Gregor

I don't remember now to be honest.  It certainly wasn't huge, and the
amount of roll was incredibly low (this was a stiff car anyway) so it
wasn't a reduction of camber thing.

The only thing they could think of (bare in mind this was a group of
TOP dynamics engineers from a VERY VERY well respected motorsports
company (possibly the most respected)) was that it had some unusual
effect on the rear and everything just fell into place during turn-in.

But the most valuable lesson here was that you should respect the fact
that it a spooky complex subject, and there is no harm (unless you are
qualifying and do't have time) in just trying something.  These guys
were SO SO good at what they do, that they knew not to be fooled into
thinking that they understood it all.  The guys are so good that the
openly admit that you can get close (a good starting point) on paper,
but after that it's just guessing :-)

All the best

Simon

Mike Nun

Car physics: ARBs and load transfer (calling Doug M and other gurus of RAS)

by Mike Nun » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 19:29:30

Hi Jonny,

There are multiple aspects that we have been arguing the toss about,
but one key one is that I believe you can calculate the load
distribution based on roll rates only, without caring whether the roll
resistance is provided by bars or springs. Simon contends (I think --
correct me if I'm wrong!) that in a steady turn you get more weight
transfer with bars that you do with springs alone, even assuming the
same roll rates.

If you use ARBs then you'll have softer springs for a given roll rate
of course. This will lead to handling differences due to the increase
in pitch movement, which will make their presence felt during
longitudinal force transients (braking, lifting, accelerating).
Clearly, the less main spring rate you trade off against bar rate, the
less these differences will be.

-= mike =-




> > So with ARBs fitted (even if they are equal) at any time that the
> > sprung mass is rolled towards one single wheel, the oposite wheel
> > loses load to it's adjacent axle partner.  The stiffer the arb the
> > greater this transfer.

> Oops, I've just hit the point where I've forgotten what we were
> disagreeing about! :-) ('cos it's not this...)

> Erm... is it to do with how this compares to achieving the same,
> increased roll rate with springs?  Now that I'm thinking about it,
> actually this is reminiscent of my empirical approach which says that
> front bar controls corner entry, rear bar controls corner exit...

> So what was the original question?!?

> Regards,
> Jonny

Mike Nun

Car physics: ARBs and load transfer (calling Doug M and other gurus of RAS)

by Mike Nun » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:00:57

Sorry, looks like I was misrepresenting Simon's opinion there. He
agrees with me in the steady-turn case, but reckons that if you
introduce braking or accelerative forces then that is when you will
see greater load transfer with a bar than with just springs. I'm going
away to sketch the situation and see how the numbers come out.  Have a
good weekend everybody!

-= mike =-


> Hi Jonny,

> There are multiple aspects that we have been arguing the toss about,
> but one key one is that I believe you can calculate the load
> distribution based on roll rates only, without caring whether the roll
> resistance is provided by bars or springs. Simon contends (I think --
> correct me if I'm wrong!) that in a steady turn you get more weight
> transfer with bars that you do with springs alone, even assuming the
> same roll rates.

> If you use ARBs then you'll have softer springs for a given roll rate
> of course. This will lead to handling differences due to the increase
> in pitch movement, which will make their presence felt during
> longitudinal force transients (braking, lifting, accelerating).
> Clearly, the less main spring rate you trade off against bar rate, the
> less these differences will be.

> -= mike =-

Doug Millike

Car physics: ARBs and load transfer (calling Doug M and other gurus of RAS)

by Doug Millike » Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:19:12

Slow USENET here...just tonight I'm getting the flood of posts on this
topic<sigh>.

Here's some more factors to make the real situation more complex still--
 - the tires deflect with load change and they have a nonlinear spring rate
 - the tires also deflect vertically with lateral force
 - while the chassis is often assumed torsionally stiff, it often isn't(!)
So actually determining the wheel loads with any confidence (even in
steady-state) by either test or calculation is rather difficult.

Simple models (as can be discussed in words without the math) are good for
geting a physical feel, but fall flat when it's time to get down to work.

-- Doug Milliken
   Milliken Research Associates Inc.




> > Hi Chaps

> > I'm Mike's friend (who's getting a slating!! :-))

> Welcome aboard ;-)

> > Move the load rearward (acceleration, etc) and you will roll the
> rear
> > suspension more than the front = front inside wheel lifts = more
> load
> > transfer at the front.

> Aha - I've just spotted the aberrant assumption!  The chassis is
> generally regarded as torsionally stiff for the purposes of suspension
> analysis, so *roll angle is the same at both ends*.  Wheel lifting
> happens when one end either has less travel than the other, or is
> significantly stiffer in roll such the the load on one wheel drops
> below zero (in practice the latter doesn't happen with coil springs,
> since they're not designed to load in tension).

> This assumption may actually be false for '60s GP cars, but I don't
> know whether or not it holds for GPL... ;-)

> HTH,
> Jonny


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