rec.autos.simulators

I got GP2 last night.  The following is all based on 6 hours of fooling
around with it - taking practice laps at various circuits (mostly Monza,
but also Monaco, Hockenheim, Brazil and some others).

A little backround - I have a P133, 16 megs, 2 meg video card, sound
card.  I have had ICR2 for several months and have really enjoyed it,
despite playing with the keyboard (I'm too cheap to get a T2 just yet).
In ICR2, I use SVGA, min frame rate 28, all cars ahead drawn, most of
the textures on auto (except track).  I consistently get frame rates in
the 27-30 range and only see trackside objects begin to turn off in
heavy traffic.

On to GP2.  I spent about 2 hours fooling with the graphics settings and
driving around.  First of all, with everything turned on, the game is
undeniably beautiful.  The tracks are rendered very realistically and
there are many enjoyable details.  However, the choices made in the
rendering engine seem to detract from the game significantly.  The only
way to get near a decent frame rate is to turn most of the features off,
as I refuse to run in VGA (which looks terrible, IMHO).  Even with most
everything turned off, I can only get a framerate in the mid 20s, which
would be acceptable, except for the other quirk of the game.  The whole
processor occupancy concept seems to me to be ass-backwards.  The game
slows the "game time" down versus real time to allow the frames to be
rendered, thereby destroying the sense of speed.  This choice makes
little sense to me at all - the game is supposed to be a sim.  If I want
to look at pictures of F1 tracks, I'll get a coffee table book.  When
the processor occupancy goes above 100%, the illusion of speed goes
right out the window.  After fooling around with this for a long time, I
turned off enough detail that I am able to run consistently below 100%
and thus stay in real-time.  However, at this setting, the game's much
vaunted graphics don't look even close to as good as ICR2.

Another thing I noticed is that when there is enough detail on to raise
occupancy rates above 100, the game actually gets easier to play because
time is slowed.  This reminds me of turning off the turbo button on an
old XT to beat a game.  Cheesy.

I suppose I could go out and get a P6-200 or something, but come on.  My
machine is not exactly a dinosaur.  I think the details in the game are
fantastic and I certainly am going to get lots of enjoyment from it, but
its performance vis-a-vis ICR2 is not very impressive.  Before everyone
starts ***ing about every little thing that they want in the game
(whether it be weather, IPX support, updated car sets, etc..), I think
that this issue of graphics performance is the most critical.  If it
remains as it is, I doubt this game will go on to be the same kind of
classic as the original was.

Enough on that.  Lest anyone think I am resolutely negative about the
whole thing, let me point out some of the features I like a lot:
  - Sound is really nice, especially stuff like hitting the curbs
  - The data logging and analysis stuff is a dream come true
  - It is quite easy to get up and running with the various drivers aids
    available - much easier than ICR2
  - Curbs are cool.
  - Lots of attention to detail and options (like choice of KMH/MPH)

Note that I haven't tried running a race yet, so I can't comment on the
AI or anything like that, which I gather is superb.

Further complaints (just in case you thought I'd gone soft):

  No way to configure the keyboard, at least that I could find.  For all
the 10 minutes of programming this would have taken, it seems rather
obnoxious - I would like to use the same pattern I do in ICR2 for
throttle, brake and turning.

  Also, another keyboard problem - you can't turn off features like
steering help when you use the keyboard for control.  Or am I wrong
about this?

  (Yes, I know - get a wheel!)

  The replays are a joke compared to the system in ICR2.

  I don't know whether this is just a flaw with the keyboard controls
or the steering help, but the car just doesn't feel as realistic as it
does in ICR2.

  Car setups lack camber, toe, tire pressure.  There is no access to
tire temperature data.  This stuff is pretty basic and the game's choice
of other features to include seems pretty idiosyncratic.  The tire
temperature is one of the most basic diagnostics.  There is no***pit
adjustable brake balance or roll bars.  Both these features are present
on F1 cars.  It is nice to have all the various damper settings and
stuff, but I think some basic stuff has been left out.

Alright, I'm done.  I may be wrong about some of this - I'm sure I will
have that pointed out to me in Usenet style (oh, boy).  While I think
this is a nice game, I doubt it is the definitive single seater sim.  If
the graphics speed was brought up to par with ICR2, perhaps then it
would be, but for now...

[snip -- most of which I agree with]

:   I don't know whether this is just a flaw with the keyboard controls
: or the steering help, but the car just doesn't feel as realistic as it
: does in ICR2.

I am really curious about this to.  I think some of the feel of handling
characterics in GP2 are masked/heightened by the slow down of time.  I
can't quite put my finger on it.  I think it would be very interesting
to have Christian Fittipaldi, Alessandro (Alex) Zanardi, and Mark
Blundell test drive GP2 & ICR2.  Then we can ask them which one models
the feel of the car the best.  Why did I choose these drivers?  Well
they all drove F1 in 1994 and now drive Indycar.

Since I've never driven real F1 or Indy cars I can't really judge, but
the GP2 cars seems way too easy to steer and control (as long as I stay
off the curbs).  However, I really like the feel of GP2 with the
traction help off.  Putting the power down too fast coming out of the
corners and going over a curb is frightening.  Maybe I just don't have
a fast enough machine for GP2, but the cars seem less nimble and light.
There's something too "solid" about them compared to ICR2 cars.

I am also bothered by the lack of "extra" cues to aid in driving in a
2D environment in GP2.  No other car sounds.  Another car can be right
beside you and you have no clue (except for maybe when your rear view
mirror is suddenly and totally filled by a huge black object -- a
tire!).

I also agree about the missing "setup" tools, tire temps, roll-bar
adjustments, etc.

However, all of the above aside both sims come from 2 different camps
and have different goals and "artistic" style.  Besides, how can I knock
GP2 and still expect to show my face in r.a.s.? :-)  (I know, we could
split it up -- "that's a joke son, it's a joke" Foghorn Leghorn).

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Try this and you will not be disappointed. With these settings my
occupancy only goes above 100% at the start, or when there is a lot of
smoke on screen. It's absolutely fine for every track except Monaco.

Julian

_____________________________________________________________________

                                University of Oxford

Randy

 >
 >
 >>Alright, I'm done.  I may be wrong about some of this - I'm sure I will
 >>have that pointed out to me in Usenet style (oh, boy).  While I think
 >>this is a nice game, I doubt it is the definitive single seater sim.  If
 >>the graphics speed was brought up to par with ICR2, perhaps then it
 >>would be, but for now...
 >
 >I totally agree and I hope SH and Geoff or somebody is listening.
 >Could a "patch" be done to solve some of the graphics speed probs?
 >Lets hope so, or its going to be a flat, untextured polygon world for
 >most users....or,_the horror_ , a VGA one.
 >
 >"You know how dumb the average person is?  Well, by definition,
 >  half of 'em are dumber than THAT."  - J.R. "Bob" Dobbs    
 >
 >                 http://www.racesimcentral.net/~flashboy

Well, I'm currently running my GP2 in VGA.  And you know, I don't think the
graphics  are that far behind ICR2 in SVGA.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say
that the graphics in GP2 are better in VGA than ICR2 offers in SVGA.  And
here's why:
        cars have CURVED body work in GP2
        light sourcing!
        track texture
        sky texture
        curbs
        real sponsors (except for tobacco; wow, GP2 has *** sponsors;
                sorry, but I don't see why *** and not cigarettes?!?!?!?!;
                you would think, both or neither;  BTW, anyone else notice the
                Marlboro sign trackside during the British Grand Prix;  why
                trackside and not on the cars?!?)

Also, why can you 'see' better in VGA on GP2 than in ICR2?  I don't know, but
I'm convinced.

However, while I get about 28-30 fps almost always on SVGA in ICR2 (w/o track
& grass textures), I can only get, IMHO, slide shows in GP2.  I'm sorry, buy
20fps is NOT playable.

Have you seen those bumper stickers that say "Visualize World Peace"?  Well,
how about this:  "Visualize P7/500".

BTW, my setup:
P5/166, Matrox MGA Millenium/4MBWRAM,64MB/60ns/EDO

Wow, time to upgrade processors AGAIN.  Why oh why are games just about the
only reason I ever have to upgrade!?

Clark Archer    Speed Tribe
IVGA #3920      1996 Lola Honda Firestone

Try turning off the help options ; )

Point taken but would you be able to get tyre temps from the***pit?

Mark
_________________________________

"..every lap I think `Oh bollocks!
This is dreadful..`" Damon Hill
__________________________________

AJ

--------------------------------------------------------------------

  AA AA        JJ     "It's not a question of whose habitat it is,
 AAAAAAA  JJ   JJ       it's a question of how hard you hit it!"
AA     AA  JJJJJ                    (Arthur Dent)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

This is with no steering or traction/opposite lock aids on. By reducing
both the front wing and rear wing considerably, I am finally able to get
the car up to about 203mph on the straights at Monza, but that has
made those corners really scary now. With absolute concentration I can
pull away from the field and build a gap, but more often I will lose it in
a corner and fall back.

I personally love the driving model, it feels much more realistic to me,
even bouncing off the curbs pushes the car in the right directions like it
does on TV in the F1 coverage. Also I am able to run over the curbs on the
chicanes if I keep my foot out of the gas until the rear traction settles
back down.

I think the driving model alone is years ahead of what ICR2 had, in GP2 I
can feel when the car is about to lose grip and get off the gas enough to
try and control it, in ICR2 every turn felt like a gamble either I made a
perfect turn or, the car would go into an unrecoverable spin.

I think the default setups are set with too much down force, great for
learning the track, but really much too slow for competing with the higher
oponent levels, in order to set the car up to the speeds required, you
have to give up some downforce and make the car much more nervous.

I feel like Gerhart Berger, at the beginning of this season at Benneton
trying to come to terms with the twichy handling and smacking the wall a
couple of times.

Great game so far, last night played for 7.5 hours straight.

Cheers.

--John
--
-------------------
  John (Joao) Silva
  http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jsilva
  Seattle, Washington USA.

How about fuel/air mixture?  Is that still adjustable in today's F1??

Yves

I too was having problems with the car being "twitchy" and "nervous" after
lowering the wings at Imola. I remedied this by softening the suspension up on
all four wheels. This seems to have made my car much easier to pilot now....

:>***pit-adjustable anti-roll bars have been banned in F1 since the
:> beginning of 1994, so it could be said to be 'realistic' to leave
:> these out, however brake balance adjustment is still allowed as far
:> as I know.
:
:How about fuel/air mixture?  Is that still adjustable in today's F1??

In the real GP, Hill got a pit board signal "FUEL MIXT 4", so I would
guess so!

:
:Yves

Ken

If you set the frame rate at 15, the game will run at 15fps - no
matter what (assuming the processor occupancy doesn't rise above
100%).

And personnaly, I agree with Clark - I tried playing at - I think it
was either 18 or 21.3 fps - and it was horrible. I mean - I couldn't
stand it. I turned it off straight away.

I don't know even why people settle for 15fps - what are they like???
I run GP2 (on a P120/16Mb/PCI graphics etc) in SVGA, none but one
detail, and NO textures whatsoever. It still looks absolutely stunning
(at least compared to GP1!!). And I get 23fps.

-------------
Richard Sobey

<...snipped stuff...>

I know just what you are saying. But I tend to think that is ICR2's
extreme jitteryness and not GP2's overly solid-ness. I could be
totally wrong, but I would say that GP2 "feels" just like F1 cars
"look" when you see the***pit views- they are amazingly solid on the
track- even though just a tiny overacceleration out of a curve will
easily spin you. I think that with ICR2, we have all gotten very used
to a ridiculously unstable model- and I believe a lot of that could
have been changed in some approach a little more sophisticated that
"Linear" or Non-Linear Steering."  Maybe I am wrong. But that is my
honest assesment (if a program I cherish, bugs and all). When I watch
Andretti from the***pit, it looks a lot more "solid" than what we
have.  Maybe I'm just witnessing the "genius of Andretti?"

I'm already used to it, but I sure was used to hearing a competitor in
ICR2 before I had to really worry about him, Now I just sort of see a
blur in my mirror, then nothing, then WHAM! on the inside of the turn,
I'm out of the race! Andretti wasn't racing in F1 '94, was he? Just
kidding! I actually like the guy a lot, and second half of the season
he has been a real pro- maybe a little messy in Toronto. I don't know
who is hitting me, I need some sort of replay that I haven't
discovered yet in GP2.

I propose that CART buy (save) Papy's ICR2 from Sierra, put 2 or 3
million dollars (nothing in racing money!) in to making the next
generation, and give NASCAR and F1 a run for their money! Let's face
it, these sims are good enough now that they are as engaging as Doom
or Descent ever were. These sims can MAKE fans of racing. F1
apparently realized this with their incredibly major endor***t of
GP2- maybe they noticed NASCAR leap out at them. It is big not only in
the south of the US (like when I was a kid), but now there are fans in
Finland, Germany, Norway, Australia... and I think that is because of
Papy's NASCAR being such a mega-hit. And all this time F1 was afraid
of IndyCar! Even in the US, IndyCar is 3rd (after NASCAR then Drag
Racing, if I understand correctly). Too bad major promo didn't go in
to ICR2 abroad- it's similarities to F1 make it a natural for F1 fans.