rec.autos.simulators

by **k..** » Sun, 28 Jul 1996 04:00:00

Ed,

Then, the situation is even worse than what I thought. I have serious
doubts about the NRL now that you've stated that it will be something
completely new, but based somewhat on what you've learned from Hawaii. It
seems pretty frightening to imagine what might happen without the extent of
testing which was done with Hawaii. I wish you all the luck and I hope for
everyone's enjoyment that the NRL will be great, as soon as it starts, but
I don't think I'll be participating, because I'd rather avoid a repeat of
my Hawaii frustrations.

Kirn Cromur

by **Chuck Stuar** » Mon, 29 Jul 1996 04:00:00

Will there be an open beta for NRL?

--
Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA

by **Ed Mart** » Mon, 29 Jul 1996 04:00:00

>Ed,

>Then, the situation is even worse than what I thought. I have serious
>doubts about the NRL now that you've stated that it will be something
>completely new, but based somewhat on what you've learned from Hawaii. It
>seems pretty frightening to imagine what might happen without the extent of
>testing which was done with Hawaii. I wish you all the luck and I hope for
>everyone's enjoyment that the NRL will be great, as soon as it starts, but
>I don't think I'll be participating, because I'd rather avoid a repeat of
>my Hawaii frustrations.

>Kirn Cromur

Well, Kirn, I guess you're just not going to be happy no matter what
we do or what I say. It's obviously pointless to get into a
discussion with you about how an online sport & somethng as big as NRL
is developed.

Have fun with whatever you do choose to do. From the sounds of
things, the only thing you'll be happy with is something you write
yourself. Good luck!

Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

by **David Spark** » Tue, 30 Jul 1996 04:00:00

>I doubt that there are many people here who DON'T know what beta is and why
>beta testing is conducted. My point is that the people involved with
>Hawaii have not made a strong effort to fix the bugs thoroughly and
>quickly. The fall is fast approaching and yet Hawaii is still very
>unstable and a major question mark. I have had technical support people
>with Hawaii tell me that they will not attempt to fix certain problems
>because it would be too difficult. That is a sure sign of a poor
>operation. If you can't fix the bugs and actually make an effort to
>address problems, then why even beta test? Why even try if you aren't
>going to give it your BEST attempt?

>Kirn Cromur

Hawaii is a prototype of the NRL, it's not really a beta. NRL will be based
on NASCAR 2, which is supposed to ship in the fall, however, NRL is
schedule for some time in '97. I suspect that the reason Papyrus is not
focused on fixing bugs in Hawaii is because the code base for NASCAR 2 and
NRL is different, and they don't want to have to maintain two sets of code.
It seems that what they are doing is finding out how well the idea will
scale up when NRL goes live. They are also building a base of experienced
users that will help to stabilize the system once it goes online with 100
times the number of drivers that are active now.

In spite of that, my experience with Papyrus' support has been very good.
They have addressed a number of issues that I've brought up, and they are
working on some of the more annoying problems that currently plague the
system (HOG, flag bugs, etc). I suspect that we will see fewer MULTI
updates as the NASCAR 2 ship date gets nearer. Obviously they need to pay
the bills, and NASCAR is their flagship product, so for understandable
reasons, it will get first priority.

Dave "davids" Sparks
Late Nite League
http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

by **k..** » Wed, 31 Jul 1996 04:00:00

Ed,

I'll be happy when I don't have an *** with Hawaii tech support telling
me that it's too much of a bother to try and fix a problem. I am easily
satisfied. Let me race on a multiplayer server without being disconnected
every other race and getting screwed by losing skill points. I have no
line noise and I've never had problems connecting with fax machines, ISPs
or any other servers. So, why is Hawaii nothing but a nightmare for me?
All I ask is for a reliable connection and an attempt to solve problems.
Period. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Kirn Cromur

by **Kyle Langst** » Wed, 31 Jul 1996 04:00:00

>Ed,

>I'll be happy when I don't have an *** with Hawaii tech support telling
>me that it's too much of a bother to try and fix a problem. I am easily
>satisfied. Let me race on a multiplayer server without being disconnected
>every other race and getting screwed by losing skill points. I have no
>line noise and I've never had problems connecting with fax machines, ISPs
>or any other servers. So, why is Hawaii nothing but a nightmare for me?
>All I ask is for a reliable connection and an attempt to solve problems.
>Period. I don't think that's too much to ask.

>Kirn Cromur

Hey, stop complaining. I can't even try out Hawaii since my computer
is just below the minimum requirements (486DX66) and times out trying
to go to the race. Hawaii is FREE. Since you are not paying for it,
how can you balk about service problems? Are the Papyrus people
supposed to work their tails to provide a perfect, error-free, and
cost-free form of entertainment for us? I don't think so. If you
don't like Hawaii's little glitches, then stop using it and wait for
the NRL to launch. THEN if you have gripes they would at least be
valid.

Kyle Langston

by **Charlie Heat** » Wed, 31 Jul 1996 04:00:00

Kirn,

As tech lead for Hawaii, I can assure you that the entire project has been
centered around testing. The differences between the level of quality
assurance required for a consumer release and that required to set up a
stable online service are considerable, and I've personally logged
literally thousands of hours focused on developing a service which is able
to operate 24 hours a day with the best reliability we can deliver.

We're working on an imperfect delivery medium with less than ideal latency;
the product you have is a prototype, much of which will be scrapped for the
NRL, and we're not bringing in a dime of revenue for the prototype, so we
cannot afford to upgrade everything we would like to upgrade or fix every
problem we could fix given infinite resources. I apologize for this, but
we unfortunately have to focus our resources ahead of the curve, on the
final product, rather than on updates to the prototype. Five years from
now, what we've achieved in the Hawaii prototype will probably look a bit
like silent movies compared with talkies, but at the moment, I think we're
still pretty close to the bleeding edge of what we can deliver over a
modem.

If you really don't think the Hawaii prototype is good enough to be worth
using, why don't you take a break and look at it again when we reach the
NRL release. A lot of people seem to think that Hawaii is the best thing
since internal combustion; if its not up to your expectations, we'd love to
get your feedback, but if you're not having fun with it, don't waste your
long distance calls on it!

Charlie Heath
Papyrus Design Group

by **Mike Radle** » Wed, 31 Jul 1996 04:00:00

> Ed,
> I'll be happy when I don't have an a..hole with Hawaii tech support
> telling me that it's too much of a bother to try and fix a problem. I
> am easily satisfied. Let me race on a multiplayer server without
> being disconnected every other race and getting screwed by losing
> skill points. I have no line noise and I've never had problems
> connecting with fax machines, ISPs or any other servers. So, why is
> Hawaii nothing but a nightmare for me? All I ask is for a reliable
> connection and an attempt to solve problems.Period. I don't think
> that's too much to ask.

Your posts remind me of an old saying "Better to remain silent and
thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt". Read the June96 NRL
newsletter! It does a GREAT job explaining the Long distance line
problems. The differences between ISP/other servers and Hawaii
connections are explained so even us lay people can understand (Ya, you
too). I think Papyrus is building something great here (working on the
engine now) and you keep walking around kicking the tires. Look at the
forest, dude.

Mike Radler

by **Ed Mart** » Wed, 31 Jul 1996 04:00:00

>Ed,

>I'll be happy when I don't have an *** with Hawaii tech support telling
>me that it's too much of a bother to try and fix a problem. I am easily
>satisfied. Let me race on a multiplayer server without being disconnected
>every other race and getting screwed by losing skill points. I have no
>line noise and I've never had problems connecting with fax machines, ISPs
>or any other servers. So, why is Hawaii nothing but a nightmare for me?
>All I ask is for a reliable connection and an attempt to solve problems.
>Period. I don't think that's too much to ask.

>Kirn Cromur

Kirn,

First, the people who work tech support are not a--holes. I take
offense to that. I'm about 1 inch from adding you to my kill file as
it is, so let's not push it, OK?

Now, as for your ability to connect to other services but not Hawaii,
I suggest you either A) search through r.a.s.; or (even better) B)
read the NRL_0696.TXT file that was downloaded to you back in June. I
have covered this question MANY times.

The short version of the reason: Hawaii forces off error correction
to improve latency. No other service (or fax machine) that we know of
does that.

Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

by **Matt Mye** » Thu, 01 Aug 1996 04:00:00

Ed, just thought of a question this morning that I wanted to ask,
can't remember seeing it here before, so forgive me if I'm repeating
someone elses ignorance. That question is:

What is going to happy to Hawaii when NR2 is released in Nov? I
know that Hawaii is the prototype for the NRL (yeehaa), and that both
will be used by NR2, but what about the interim time? Will there be
separate nodes for NR clients and NR2 clients? I kinda doubt it
myself seeing how it's a free (well, relatively-thanks Sprint)
product, but will we tune in one day having not gotten NR2 yet and be
turned away at the front door of Hawaii?

Just something I thought of that made me curious. I know, I should
try to get out more and let the computer cool down for a bit.

Matt Myers
---------------------------------------------
Expressing individualism is just plain wrong.

Crow T. Robot

by **Flo** » Thu, 01 Aug 1996 04:00:00

>Hey, stop complaining. I can't even try out Hawaii since my computer
>is just below the minimum requirements (486DX66) and times out trying
>to go to the race. Hawaii is FREE. Since you are not paying for it,
>how can you balk about service problems? Are the Papyrus people
>supposed to work their tails to provide a perfect, error-free, and
>cost-free form of entertainment for us? I don't think so. If you
>don't like Hawaii's little glitches, then stop using it and wait for
>the NRL to launch. THEN if you have gripes they would at least be
>valid.

Yes, but you are the sort of person who doesn`t complain when he`s
given a "FREE!!!! AT NO CHARGE" kick in the head as long as it`s a
Papyrus boot doing the kicking.

by **Kyle Langst** » Thu, 01 Aug 1996 04:00:00

>>Hey, stop complaining. I can't even try out Hawaii since my computer
>>is just below the minimum requirements (486DX66) and times out trying
>>to go to the race. Hawaii is FREE. Since you are not paying for it,
>>how can you balk about service problems? Are the Papyrus people
>>supposed to work their tails to provide a perfect, error-free, and
>>cost-free form of entertainment for us? I don't think so. If you
>>don't like Hawaii's little glitches, then stop using it and wait for
>>the NRL to launch. THEN if you have gripes they would at least be
>>valid.
>Yes, but you are the sort of person who doesn`t complain when he`s
>given a "FREE!!!! AT NO CHARGE" kick in the head as long as it`s a
>Papyrus boot doing the kicking.

You obviously didn't read any of the post. Free means NO MONEY COMES
OUT OF YOUR POCKET. Where is it written that everyone has a right to
free things/services that rival the commercial equivalents? Grow up!

Kyle Langston

by **Mark** » Thu, 01 Aug 1996 04:00:00

It is amazing what people will blame their problems on, I have been running
Hawaii
for four month and never have had a problem, I also learned to stay out of
pick up races and joined a league, as for bugs, let complain after sierra
starts charging us for the service, right now I am sure they will give you
your money back for the hawaii
software, hell i will even chip in.

buster
--
Mark Mc Kinney
"buster"