rec.autos.simulators

Past few weeks I've noticed posting by a few folks who I've come to
respect for the usual intelligent/constructive content of their
messages. But that seem's to be deminishing rapidly.

All the usual complaints keep pouring in, No Save option,
No double file restarts, no sunspot, the mirror isn't good enough,
The AI isn't better. blah blah blah......

I agree with almost everyone that Nascar2 has some shortcomings.
And there are alot of area's that need to be addressed. Hopefully
Papyrus will do the right thing and set some of these things straight.
I'll keep my personal list of bug/dislikes/like to myself becuase it's
nothing that hasn't  been seen here 1000 times already.

What winding my clock is that everybody seems REAL quick to jump the
gun and put the blame on the Papyrus guys, the ones that put this Sim
together. If anyone has actually talked to some of those guys, I have,
and it's real obvious that there is some tension within Papyrus about
what was left out and how fast this got pushed out the door. Wanna
throw some blame around start with Sierra I posted a message days
after Sierra aquired Papyrus saying that Sierra would put a serious
cramp in Papyrus' work, Sierra has managed to do this with SEVERAL
other smaller companies that they got ahold of. The "Dynamix" crew
comes to mind off the top of my head.

Second, when I read the article that was on nex-generation.com that
The Sim had the backing/Sanctioning of ///NASCAR I got a *** feeling
in my gut. Now it's moved from one helluva sim to a Big Biz deal. THEN
we started seeing all the trouble with everybody's sites with Logo's,
tracks, Offline series directors got a spoonful. I'm not saying that
these companies don't have the right to protect themselves. But who
the hell was really hurting anything?

IMHO This whole NASCAR2 sim (and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to
figure out) is based around one thing. The NRO! An Online Series that
everybody wants to make a buck off of. Anybody that's paid attention
to the Sim should be able to see, from the changing of the .stn
structure (there goes offline series, gee they'll hafta get their
rocks off with the NRO!) to the lack of attention that was put into
improving the AI. (Ut! another plus for the blessed NRO!)   The
marketing genius's knew we'd all buy it up anyway.

I'd like to see the figures on what was spent on the R&D of HAWAII as
opposed to the cost of bringing in Consultants and other talents to
figure out things like why can't we get the AI to play nice with the
driver if he pits in a middle stall instead  of the tail end of the
field. As well as all the other things that were talked about such as
the dbl-file restarts etc.etc.

So who's to blame?

Well, I'm gonna put ALOT of it on Sierra, Serious "quanity vs.
quality" problem. N2 was NOT ready to be released period. I would have
GLADLY waited for 6 more months to get ahold of it. I'm not sure it
would have changed much from what we have now but at least some of the
more obvious bugs would have been taken care of. I think with the
pressure to put it out the door for the X-mas shelves and to Keep
NASCAR happy , the Papyrus guys where pushed and pushed hard.
As I said all is not what it seem's within the Papyrus circle. Try to
support these guys. We all know what thier capable of and we know they
really care about the way thier stuff turns out. But in this case I
feel like Big Business, Marketing, and a Deadline got in the way.

NRO is a way cool concept, they just forgot the rest of the
game.<Grin>

Try to be constructive with the complaints in regards to the problems
with N2 I'm sure the "bugs" will be addressed. Flaming these guys
won't speed up the process. Gear your anger about what was left out
at Sierra.

(Flame Retardent Underwear in place)

Andy

Andy A.

Can't blame Sierra/Papyrus/NRO either for wanting to get it on the Xmas
shelves... they're in business.  To make money.  That's what businesses
do.

As far as the influence of Nascar/NRO on the game features and AI, etc:
The NRO will be ground breaking technology which I saw coming as soon as
NC1 was released.  To me, it's such a tremendous and exciting
undertaking that only a fool would expect perfection from Sierra,
Papyrus or any other developers involved in something so large.

I'm glad to have the sim.  I'm sure the bugs and such will be addressed
(they have been before).  I'm looking forward to the NRO and lots of fun
with my fellow competitors.  Guess I'm just a patient guy who is willing
to give Papy and Nascar the benefit of the doubt - especially
considering the magnitude of the project.

Bravely wearing NO underwear,

David Thompson (dglenn)

The gamble to me with NRO is that really is today's technology gonna be able
to really run it well over the phone lines. IMO NRO can be a big flop both
technically and subscriber wise.

In my little world I hope they have a few different circuits so I can choose
options that I like. I'm not one for 100% of everything, to me that's to
tedious. That's after it's technically sound of course. DO we get our money
back when we loose connection half way through? In fact I'll go this far to
say (since I'm a current user of CM's) NRO should be held back till N3 (N3 = a
bug free N2 with improved AI, anti-alaising and a save feature) and be used
only by CABLE MODEM OWNERS. This time next year a lot more of the country will
be on cable modems which are FAST enough and STABLE enough to handle something
as big as NRO. Latency would be around 50 at that time.

Anyways they have some serious work to do to pull off this NRO project. They
have enough bugs with the regular N2 now that even thinking beyond basic N2 is
a little crazy IMO.

But it's either Papy or Sierra or both take your pick, I know I had nothing to
do with the problems!! Does it really matter who? I'm a paid customer so I
have every right to request a bug free copy. But with all the problems I can
say this game once you figure out all the little goofs in multiplayer mode
over a lan is AWESOME, so I'm thankful for that, truly. But NRO please, dream
on....

Q.B.M.

Ditto, ditto, ditto!!  I agree.  Judging from past games, we can all
tell the Papyrus guys love their work and hate to release faulty
software.  We all ran out and bought the Nascar2 game as soon as we
could find copies of it because we anticipated something great.  

One other item I'd like to suggest.  Not only did Sierra and NASCAR push
this sim out the door too early, WE did also!  I watched the forums at
the Papyrus website and they were filled with angry fans' messages about
the pushback of the November release date.  I'm sure many at Sierra and
Papyrus read LOTS of email about "Where is it?  Hurry up!"  I too am
guilty.  Most would agree that this sim needed a couple of months extra
development time, so lets give them at least that long to come out with
a good, unrushed, thorough patch that fixes all problems.  The game, as
we know, has only been out one month.  Patience grasshoppers...

M Lewis

: Ditto, ditto, ditto!!  I agree.  Judging from past games, we can all
: tell the Papyrus guys love their work and hate to release faulty
: software.  We all ran out and bought the Nascar2 game as soon as we
: could find copies of it because we anticipated something great.  

: One other item I'd like to suggest.  Not only did Sierra and NASCAR push
: this sim out the door too early, WE did also!  I watched the forums at
: the Papyrus website and they were filled with angry fans' messages about
: the pushback of the November release date.  I'm sure many at Sierra and
: Papyrus read LOTS of email about "Where is it?  Hurry up!"  I too am
: guilty.  Most would agree that this sim needed a couple of months extra
: development time, so lets give them at least that long to come out with
: a good, unrushed, thorough patch that fixes all problems.  The game, as
: we know, has only been out one month.  Patience grasshoppers...

I am going to give Papy/Sierra one more "blind trust" on providing
thorough and prompt bug fixes.  I understand the situations behind the
ICR2 debacle.  I disagree with the reasons behind them, and I hope
Papy/Sierra learned their lessons.  

While I am being honest (I mean if admitting one's a sucker isn't being
honest?), I'm glad that Papy/Sierra released N2 when they did.  I soured
on N1 because they wouldn't fix the "traction" bug for us single-player
users.  I was turned off ICR2 because they refused to fix the things
they broke with the long-awaited last patch.  I was losing interest with
GP2 (sorry, but I'm still not happy with "glued" to the track driving
model).  Yes there are some minor/not-so-minor bugs in N2, but I am
getting value out of the product while I await a "timely" and "thorough"
bug-fix patch/enhancement.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

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Sorry Michael, you've lost me here. Surely you're not driving GP2 with
steering help on are you?? If not then in what way is the driving model
"glued to the track"?

Cheers,
Richard

: > I was losing interest with
: >GP2 (sorry, but I'm still not happy with "glued" to the track driving
: >model).  

: Sorry Michael, you've lost me here. Surely you're not driving GP2 with
: steering help on are you?? If not then in what way is the driving model
: "glued to the track"?

No, I don't use any "helps".  I just find the "handling" physics in the
sim to forgiving.  I know that an F1 car generates a ton of down-force,
but once I get a good solid and fast setup, the car seems too easy to
control.  One would expect more "pilot" input to keep the car in a
groove going through a long sweeping turn while applying power.  About
the only time it seems one can loose it is to spin the wheels, lock the
brakes, go over a curb or attack a corner too hard.  On the other hand
ICR2 goes to the opposite extreme.  It feels like the ca's jacks are
still slightly down, causing the car to "pivot" along a center of
gravity.

I think the feel in NASCAR2 is getting pretty close.  It's easy to feel
the front wheels beginning to loose grip going into/through a corner, or
feel the rear end begin to go.  I find subtle throttle changes easily
alter the cars handling.  Speaking of NASCAR2, its "arcade" mode is an
extreme example of how I feel GP2 models the physics of car handling.
This is not to say that GP2 is an arcade sim, it's far better of a sim
than that.  I just feel the Geoff leaned towards the "arcade" style of
modeling the car's handling for the "game play" aspect of the sim.  We
have had this discussion in the past here in r.a.s. and I know that the
majority disagree with me on this one.  However, there are others who
have this "minority" view.  Again, I'm not knocking GP2...

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

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Thanks for the explanation. I must admit though that I don't agree with
you ;-).

Maybe it comes down to setups or simple driving style, but when I'm going
through say the last corner at Estoril I can feel the car wanting to
break loose all the way round as I feed in the power.

Admittedly, a lot of my GP2 driving is hotlapping and tends to have
somewhat extreme setups with loads of aerodynamic oversteer and similarly
large amounts of suspension understeer....

An F1 car is probably easier to drive near the limit than an Indycar, but
it is harder once the limit is reached. This is one of the reasons why
Indycar races are more exciting to watch - the cars can be driven much
closer to the limit and are more predictable once the limit is reached
(i.e. they tend to slide rather than snap out of shape) enabling closer
racing. IMHO both GP2 and ICR2 model their respective formula's
characteristics very well.

I really like N2's driving model as well. Rather sluggish in many ways
(but there again, these are heavy cars) and the brakes are far too ABS
like, but IMHO it is a significant advance over N1.

Once Papy have fully implemented brake locking & wheel spinning there
will be little to choose between their driving model and GP2, but for now
GP2 offers the most complete and accurate driving model available.

Cheers,
Richard

PS: I know most of this has been discussed before, but it's still more
fun than reading ump*** whining posts ;-)

I think that GP2 has the most realistic driving model of the sims now
available when you consider the traction and handling.  I disagree that
GP2 feels too "glued down" just because there is not constant tire
screeching. F1 cars are seldom manhandled around the courses like
Indycars can be.  Nor, do the tires constantly screech.  When you drive
like that in GP2, the tires exhibit noticeable wear after only a very
few laps, just as in reality.  By contrast, Indycars in ICR2 can be
squealing around every turn for dozens of laps without much loss to
traction.  This is more unrealistic IMHO.  Real Indycars can be hustled
better, but the *** still wears off sooner than it does in the sim.

GP2 requires exact and precise driving to stay on the road at the edge.
For example, try making even a small mistake at the turn/chicane on the
back straight of Hockenheim.  This is not easy at all when driven at the
limit.  When I do well there, I feel like Senna has died and left me his
talent!  The game's physics are incredibly realistic and will remain my
mental racing sim benchmark for a long time to come!

Matt Lewis

<snip>
: Thanks for the explanation. I must admit though that I don't agree with
: you ;-).

That's fine.  You know, I think Microprose and Papy/Sierra should offer
both of us the opportunity to try out real F1/Indycar/NASCAR cars on
real circuits.  This way we can settle this thing once 'n for all.
Hell, they might even learn something from our feedback! ;-)

<snip again>

: I really like N2's driving model as well. Rather sluggish in many ways
: (but there again, these are heavy cars) and the brakes are far too ABS
: like, but IMHO it is a significant advance over N1.

: Once Papy have fully implemented brake locking & wheel spinning there
: will be little to choose between their driving model and GP2, but for now
: GP2 offers the most complete and accurate driving model available.

YES!  Forgot that lame brake modelling in N2.  I also agree that the
wheel spinning is "arcadish" in N2.  Though I understand their reasoning
behind how they implemented it.  I look forward to their improving
"curbs" also.  The ones at the Glen have a nice feel to them.  God,
would I love to have them in ICR2 (still hoping for an ICR3, but we will
probably see a GP3 before we see an ICR3 -- and by then there will be a
couple of nots in the year).

But then again, that's why I have all 3 sims.  Each has their weaknesses
and strengths.  Each brings their own enjoyment and frustrations.  Each
brings more promise for the next level of programming.

: PS: I know most of this has been discussed before, but it's still more
: fun than reading ump*** whining posts ;-)

Agreed!  I guess I need to go back to GP2 and not be so conservative
with my setups.  But, then my approach is just the opposite of yours.  I
aim for the setup that will get me through the whole race.  If I go for
"hotlap" setups, I always (and I mean ALWAYS), loose it somewhere along
the way.  But, when I get that "Goldilocks" setup, I can manage
(usually) to keep it all together until the end.  I may not always win,
but I'm right there until the end.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I will agree with you on this one. I do like the handling of Nascar2
although I love both sims Nascar2 and GP2.

I drive GP2 a lot, and I am fairly happy with the handling, but I must
admit that something doesn't feel right in the tire grip. For example
at Monza with all the help options off, going into the Curva Parabolica
(that big curve before the start finish straightaway), I can usually go
into it too hot, slam on the brakes and then crank the wheel fully to the
right and manage to go around the curve in a totally unrealistic line
faster than the AI cars on Pro level and without spinning out. The tires
will squeal like pigs but the car will not spin out. It just doesn't feel
right at least doesn't look like what I see on TV in the F1 TV coverage.
Again this is with ALL the help options OFF using a T2.

Not to take away from GP2, it is still a great sim, but it has it's
faults. Too bad we can't get the great curbs and the big handling jolts
they cause into Nascar2.

IMHO the improvement of the handling in Nascar2 compared to N1 is my
favorite change. I am much more confident of the handling of my car in
Nascar2 when going into the turns than I was with N1, you can actually
feel the different corners of the car start to slip. I don't know how they
did it but it works well.

Cheers.

--John

<bg>

Much better having the on/off version than none at all. Doing three point
turns in the middle of a race isn't that realistic ;-)

I'm still hoping that they will do there every other year upgrade. Don't
particularly expect it from what I've read, but I'm hoping...

If I were you I would stick with your current ones, provided you can at
least match the Ace cars - "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" <g>. I
currently run races at "Ace+2" level using GP2EDIT to up the CC strength.
As often as not I crash out and I haven't won a 100% race at Ace+2 yet,
but I would rather be battling for a points finish and knowing that a
mistake will cost me valuable places than winning easily with a couple of
crashes.

Cheers,
Richard

Geoff never managed to get this corner right :( The GP2 version is a
slight improvement on F1GP/WC but not by that much. Incidently I have
found that using a low front wing (1 or 2) at Monza will result in much
more realistic driving lines than most setups that you can download from
the web. It's not as fast as a 7 or 8 front wing, but is much more stable
over the kerbs in the chicanes and makes the racing with the CCs that
much more exciting. Still doesn't solve the Parabolica problem though :(

Or better still, ICR3 <g>

I've read a lot of complaints about how the car handling and AI isn't an
improvement over N1. I find it just the opposite - a _huge_ improvement.
I just couldn't handle the short ovals in N1 at all, but Bristol is now
my favourite track: door to door, bumper to bumper FUN. The best example
of sim _racing_ yet <bg>

Cheers,
Richard