rec.autos.simulators

by **britdi..** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:13:55

Hi,

I have just spent the last couple of days playing with the settings in
GP4. I'm using FRAPS to monitor the "true" frame rates. I have an
XP1800+, GF3 Ti500, 512 DDR, Acoustic Edge system. Here are my
findings:

1. As others had found out before me (thank God), I can't save
settings on exit otherwise the game will not restart. A black screen.
So get rid of any f1gstate files.

2. Sound settings don't work properly. I have uncheck both 2D and 3D
acceleration. It will even let me check both? I actually get more
sound from 2D. But all shitty, so I have turn both accerelations off.

3. The biggest news is fps. I can leave the graphics settings
unchanged and hit test 3 times in a row and get very different
numbers. With my current settings, I sometimes get anything from 25 to
37 fps. Without changing anything!. In fact most changes to the
graphics settings make only a slight change in fps. I even decrease
some setting and the fps go DOWN?

4. So I ignored the fps and set it to the max 60 fps. To my amazement
I often get (according to FRAPS) 40 and sometimes over 50 fps as long
as I'm the only car on track. So why use test? And why restrict fps to
anything? Anyone have any ideas?

5. I can actually get a drop from 37 to 27 fps simply because a damn
"fastest lap" message appears on the screen. It actually noticably
slows to game and fps. I hate it. It speeds back up and fps rise again
once the message goes.

6. All the graphics tweaks in the world will not get around the fact
that what is controlling the fps is the number of other cars and their
AI. With all cars is slows dramatically period. Pity.

Any comments or thoughts on my findings, particluarly (4). I currently
just leave it maxed at 60 fps.

Richard

by **Jan Verschuere** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:13:41

> Hi,

> I have just spent the last couple of days playing with
> the settings in GP4. I'm using FRAPS to monitor the
> "true" frame rates. I have an XP1800+, GF3 Ti500, 512
> DDR, Acoustic Edge system. Here are my findings:
> <snip>

Measuring FPS in GP4 to gauge performance is futile as it will not drop
frames to keep the game moving. I.e. if you set it to draw 60 frames per
_game_ second, it will draw 60 frames no matter how long it takes in real
time.
This is why you see the wildy differing frame rates regardless of settings.
Certain things like smoke, messages (be it on screen or audio) load the
processor so the frames don't get drawn in real time and the game slows
down.

The parameter which measures this most accurately is "Processor Occupancy"
("o" -key while driving). You will notice with the 60fps setting it will
always be over 100%. The game just can't draw 60fps on current hardware.
Reading processor occupancy works like this. If it's 200% it takes twice as
long to draw 60 frames than is should, i.e. one game second equals two
seconds of real time (and fraps measures 30fps). If it's 100% your computer
just about manages to draw the required frames within a second (game fps =
fraps fps). Anything more than it's showing now (AI, smoke, text, etc...)
will cause the game to slow down. If the occupancy is less than 100% (and
you should get it to like 90% with all AI in view for smooth play), say: at
50%, it would take only half a second to draw 60 frames, this does not mean
the game starts running at twice normal speed (Geoff is not *that* ***a
programmer), but it does mean your PC sits idle for a while between frames.

Hope this clears things up for you a little.

Jan.
=---
"It's for the fun." - Gilles Panizzi

by **DJR** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:34:20

go buy F1 2002!

by **ymenar** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:59:14

> I have just spent the last couple of days playing with the settings in
> GP4. I'm using FRAPS to monitor the "true" frame rates. I have an
> XP1800+, GF3 Ti500, 512 DDR, Acoustic Edge system. Here are my
> findings:

Here are my findings :

Try to give yourself a refund for GP4 and go buy F12002 (or F1RC, but that's
another thing...) ;-)

I mean, you've wasted all that valuable *** time just tweaking with some
framerate, getting yourself mad against the simulator when you could had
enjoyed that time for the actual purpose of a simulator, which is racing! :)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **britdi..** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:59:48

I have actually just found the setting that makes THE difference for
my hardware setup. "Environment Maps". I thought I had played with it
before, but obviously not. I changed it to "static" and the framerate
improvement is about 40%! And I can't tell any difference in quality.
In fact I have now got everything maxed, res of 1280x1024, -1 detail
(max), all "advanced" settings maxed, except mirrors = cars only and
env map = static NOT dynamic. I still have video walls "off" and I
have never even seen a "heat haze", so it's off. In a quickrace, I get
a frame rate of about 40 on the grid at Monaco. It can drop to about
30 with lots of AI cars in shoot, but is now mainly running about 40
to 55 fps at Monaco. This is according to fraps. And is certainly runs
great. Lots of fun.

Going back to your reply. I guess my only question is still - why set
the game fps and restrict it? Does it actually do any harm to set it
to the max of 60 and at least give it the chance to reach it? I
sometimes actually get fraps to hit high 50s even maybe 60.

Those on screen messages slowing it down are really beginning to***
me off though.

Thanks,

Richard.

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 22:13:41 GMT, "Jan Verschueren"

>> Hi,

>> I have just spent the last couple of days playing with
>> the settings in GP4. I'm using FRAPS to monitor the
>> "true" frame rates. I have an XP1800+, GF3 Ti500, 512
>> DDR, Acoustic Edge system. Here are my findings:
>> <snip>

>Measuring FPS in GP4 to gauge performance is futile as it will not drop
>frames to keep the game moving. I.e. if you set it to draw 60 frames per
>_game_ second, it will draw 60 frames no matter how long it takes in real
>time.
>This is why you see the wildy differing frame rates regardless of settings.
>Certain things like smoke, messages (be it on screen or audio) load the
>processor so the frames don't get drawn in real time and the game slows
>down.

>The parameter which measures this most accurately is "Processor Occupancy"
>("o" -key while driving). You will notice with the 60fps setting it will
>always be over 100%. The game just can't draw 60fps on current hardware.
>Reading processor occupancy works like this. If it's 200% it takes twice as
>long to draw 60 frames than is should, i.e. one game second equals two
>seconds of real time (and fraps measures 30fps). If it's 100% your computer
>just about manages to draw the required frames within a second (game fps =
>fraps fps). Anything more than it's showing now (AI, smoke, text, etc...)
>will cause the game to slow down. If the occupancy is less than 100% (and
>you should get it to like 90% with all AI in view for smooth play), say: at
>50%, it would take only half a second to draw 60 frames, this does not mean
>the game starts running at twice normal speed (Geoff is not *that* ***a
>programmer), but it does mean your PC sits idle for a while between frames.

>Hope this clears things up for you a little.

>Jan.
>=---
>"It's for the fun." - Gilles Panizzi

by **britdi..** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:25:04

OK Jan. I think I'm getting my head around what you are saying. If I
decrease the fps, I will get smoother play with AI cars on the screen.
And anyway, I bet it's impossible to tell 60fps from 40fps anyway. In
fact if 36fps is good enough to race GPL, then it's got to be ok for
GP4. I have lowered my fps setting in GP4 to 36 and I'm sure it runs
faster now with AI cars on the screen. Did I get there finally? Thanks
for your help.

Richard.

P.S. Any ideas on getting FF to work with Logitech Wingman Forumla
Force (original one)?

P.P.S. Any ideas on sound settings? No acceleration? 2D? 3D? 3D with
EAX? 3D with EAX and mutli speaker?

Or do we just wait for the patch on both of these questions?

>I have actually just found the setting that makes THE difference for
>my hardware setup. "Environment Maps". I thought I had played with it
>before, but obviously not. I changed it to "static" and the framerate
>improvement is about 40%! And I can't tell any difference in quality.
>In fact I have now got everything maxed, res of 1280x1024, -1 detail
>(max), all "advanced" settings maxed, except mirrors = cars only and
>env map = static NOT dynamic. I still have video walls "off" and I
>have never even seen a "heat haze", so it's off. In a quickrace, I get
>a frame rate of about 40 on the grid at Monaco. It can drop to about
>30 with lots of AI cars in shoot, but is now mainly running about 40
>to 55 fps at Monaco. This is according to fraps. And is certainly runs
>great. Lots of fun.

>Going back to your reply. I guess my only question is still - why set
>the game fps and restrict it? Does it actually do any harm to set it
>to the max of 60 and at least give it the chance to reach it? I
>sometimes actually get fraps to hit high 50s even maybe 60.

>Those on screen messages slowing it down are really beginning to***
>me off though.

>Thanks,

>Richard.

>On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 22:13:41 GMT, "Jan Verschueren"

>>> Hi,

>>> I have just spent the last couple of days playing with
>>> the settings in GP4. I'm using FRAPS to monitor the
>>> "true" frame rates. I have an XP1800+, GF3 Ti500, 512
>>> DDR, Acoustic Edge system. Here are my findings:
>>> <snip>

>>Measuring FPS in GP4 to gauge performance is futile as it will not drop
>>frames to keep the game moving. I.e. if you set it to draw 60 frames per
>>_game_ second, it will draw 60 frames no matter how long it takes in real
>>time.
>>This is why you see the wildy differing frame rates regardless of settings.
>>Certain things like smoke, messages (be it on screen or audio) load the
>>processor so the frames don't get drawn in real time and the game slows
>>down.

>>The parameter which measures this most accurately is "Processor Occupancy"
>>("o" -key while driving). You will notice with the 60fps setting it will
>>always be over 100%. The game just can't draw 60fps on current hardware.
>>Reading processor occupancy works like this. If it's 200% it takes twice as
>>long to draw 60 frames than is should, i.e. one game second equals two
>>seconds of real time (and fraps measures 30fps). If it's 100% your computer
>>just about manages to draw the required frames within a second (game fps =
>>fraps fps). Anything more than it's showing now (AI, smoke, text, etc...)
>>will cause the game to slow down. If the occupancy is less than 100% (and
>>you should get it to like 90% with all AI in view for smooth play), say: at
>>50%, it would take only half a second to draw 60 frames, this does not mean
>>the game starts running at twice normal speed (Geoff is not *that* ***a
>>programmer), but it does mean your PC sits idle for a while between frames.

>>Hope this clears things up for you a little.

>>Jan.
>>=---
>>"It's for the fun." - Gilles Panizzi

by **Jan Verschuere** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:38:39

> I have actually just found the setting that makes THE
> difference for my hardware setup. "Environment Maps".
> <snip>

Glad you found a tweak to make the game run better.

Obviously, you didn't read carefully enough. GP4 is not like other games.
It's core program is 6 years old. It doesn't work like other, newer games
where, if the game starts running out of time, it just doesn't draw screen
updates to keep the game moving in real time. If you set GP4 to draw 60
frames it will draw 60 frames, whether it can do it in a second or not.
Ergo: if it can't draw the 60 frames in one second (real-time), game time
slows down. Again, you may measure 55fps but the game still draws 60 frames
per game second. It just takes 1.091 real time seconds to do it. I'll prove
it to you: turn up the detail until you're down to about 50fps according to
fraps. Drive a lap, even a slow one will do (say, 1m20s at Monaco), then
time the replay with a stopwatch (stick to***pit view as fps/occupancy
should theoritically be the same). You'll notice the lap actually took 1m36s
to do. Ergo, if you set a certain fps in GP4 and you PC can't attain that in
real time, the game stops running in real time and slows down. I can't
believe you haven't noticed that low fps, instead of stop motion as with
today's games, introduces slow motion in GP4.

The reason why this is bad is that a) you're kidding yourself you can drive
the cars as things are not happening as fast as they should and, b) all
hotlap tables and off-line leagues consider runnig more than 100% occupancy
cheating.

In GP4 you don't restrict fps, you set it... in frames per second of game
time. Measuring fps on GP4 is futile... it's not a measure of how well it's
running as it runs equally well regardless of the setting. You can crank it
up to 1200% occupancy and drive an F1 race in extreme slow motion... it
never recovers neither crashes. It just doesn't run in real time.

Use the "occupancy" display to gauge how well your PC is shifting the game
around and get it down to about 90% with a full field of AI in view. Even
if you have to turn the fps setting down to 37 or lower to do it. If you
want to play GP4, you'll have to do so by it's rules. There's no
alternative, that's just the way it's programmed. This is true for a lot of
stuff in the game and a major reason why some people are really pissed off
with Geoff Crammond and his idiosyncratic coding style.

Otherwise, follow the other poster's advice and exchange it for F1 2002.
Then you can use fraps to tweak the settings in order to your desired number
of fps. In real time.

The messages are a minor annoyance to some of the stuff that will drive you
up the wall once you get to a certain level in the game. But you'll find out
about that in due course.

Jan.
=---

by **ymenar** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:40:08

> Going back to your reply. I guess my only question is still - why set
> the game fps and restrict it?

Because the simulation is probably unable to do real-time FPS change
in-game.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **ymenar** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:43:01

> And anyway, I bet it's impossible to tell 60fps from 40fps anyway.

It's really possible ;-)

Just take per example your monitor screen refresh. 40kHz gives you massive
headache, while 60 gives you a mild one!

No patch can cure a Geoff Crammond simulation ;-P

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Jan Verschuere** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:45:01

> OK Jan. I think I'm getting my head around what you
> are saying. If I decrease the fps, I will get
> smoother play with AI cars on the screen. And anyway,
> I bet it's impossible to tell 60fps from 40fps anyway.
> In fact if 36fps is good enough to race GPL, then it's
> got to be ok for GP4. I have lowered my fps setting in
> GP4 to 36 and I'm sure it runs faster now with AI cars
> on the screen. Did I get there finally? Thanks for
> your help.

Welcome. I don't know if you've got it straight yet. From your comments it's
still open to interpretation. I hammered it out again in a further reply.
Check it out and let me know.

If you made a "custom" control set for your LWFF you can simply turn FF on
from that screen. Check "save game state" as you exit and FF should be there
next time if not right away.

Not sure, I don't actually own GP4. Going on experience with earlier
versions and what I've read here. Over to RAS on this one.

"We" might have to wait a very, very long time for a GP4 patch.

Jan.
=---

by **ymenar** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:12:45

> It's core program is 6 years old.

F1GP was released on the Amiga in 1989 no? It's still the same core basis,
so it's now closer to 15 years old now!

Yes... he will learn... he... will... learn... ;-)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **britdi..** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:56:43

I think I've got it. I have just decreased my GP4 setting to 26fps.
Man it runs fast. Lots of fun. That keeps my CPU occ flickering in the
90s when I on the grid at the back of the grid at Monaco. Then
flickers up into the low 100s when driving though the pack at the
start. Drops back down quickly after the first corner. So that should
be great for all other circuits.

It's a very different way of thinking about frame rates. I'm sorry it
took me some long to get. I appreciate your help. But this game
actually feels "faster" when you set the frame rate lower and the
graphics remain the same until if you set it too low (I set it at 10
to see what would happen), it drives fine but the graphics look
choppy. This is very different from games like GPL which can become
undriveable if the framerate drops below about 33. As you say you are
setting the frame rate, and this directly controls how real the speed
looks and feels.

Thanks again,

Richard

On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 00:45:01 GMT, "Jan Verschueren"

>> OK Jan. I think I'm getting my head around what you
>> are saying. If I decrease the fps, I will get
>> smoother play with AI cars on the screen. And anyway,
>> I bet it's impossible to tell 60fps from 40fps anyway.
>> In fact if 36fps is good enough to race GPL, then it's
>> got to be ok for GP4. I have lowered my fps setting in
>> GP4 to 36 and I'm sure it runs faster now with AI cars
>> on the screen. Did I get there finally? Thanks for
>> your help.

>Welcome. I don't know if you've got it straight yet. From your comments it's
>still open to interpretation. I hammered it out again in a further reply.
>Check it out and let me know.

>> P.S. Any ideas on getting FF to work with Logitech
>> Wingman Forumla Force (original one)?

>If you made a "custom" control set for your LWFF you can simply turn FF on
>from that screen. Check "save game state" as you exit and FF should be there
>next time if not right away.

>> P.P.S. Any ideas on sound settings? No acceleration?
>> 2D? 3D? 3D with EAX? 3D with EAX and mutli speaker?

>Not sure, I don't actually own GP4. Going on experience with earlier
>versions and what I've read here. Over to RAS on this one.

>> Or do we just wait for the patch on both of these questions?

>"We" might have to wait a very, very long time for a GP4 patch.

>Jan.
>=---

by **Damien Smit** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:31:40

<ACKK> newbie alert!!!!

by **ymenar** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:40:50

> I think I've got it. I have just decreased my GP4 setting to 26fps.
> Man it runs fast. Lots of fun. That keeps my CPU occ flickering in the
> 90s when I on the grid at the back of the grid at Monaco. Then
> flickers up into the low 100s when driving though the pack at the
> start. Drops back down quickly after the first corner. So that should
> be great for all other circuits.

You really should always have the occ under 100% at all cost, or else you
are going in slower real-time then reality (gosh that's complicated, damn
you dirty Crammond... damn you!!! eh). When racing alone, it should be more
around 60-70%, so that it never goes over 100% even in the worse racing
event possible. If you have it a little under 100% under normal racing
condition, you'll have difficulties handling big wrecks or avoiding
incidents. Trust us, we've been handling this for 10+ years since F1GP and
Grand Prix 2.

I guess that it's a way to see the situation, LOL. For the 100 bad things
of Crammond's framerate method, there is a couple of good things for it. A
couple, yeah ;-)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Damien Smit** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:39:17

That's one reason you should stick to F1 2002 - it runs full speed no matter
what and can usually maintain about 60fps on a half-decent system.

--
Damien Smith

ICQ: 77028579
F1 2001 rank: -11.512

rec.autos.simulators

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