rec.autos.simulators

A very good point was brought up about TEN and Nascar2. Nascar2 was
packaged with TEN with the promise of a product being out soon OVER a
year ago.

Both Papyrus and TEN knew they were no where close to having a
product, but jumped on the vaporware bandwagon to promote this.
A lot of people Signed up for TEN last December on the falsehood
that NROS would be out shortly. I have serious reservations about TEN,
and Papyrus even when NROS comes out, which we still have no clear
date when.

Pushing deadlines is fine, and informing people of a product you're
developing is also good. It whets the appetite. However, a lot of
people were misled into joining TEN almost a year ago for NROS.
Papyrus also promoted that NROS would soon be out. Thats ok when it's
a product you plan on selling. However, a lot of people are paying
money for TEN primarily to play NROS.

Making a great sim alone doesn't make you a good company. It means you
made a great sim. Misleading people, and selling something that
doesn't exist makes you lose credibility. Since N2, Papyrus has yet to
release another product, the NROS info all comes from Sean Butcher.

But then seeing how Papyrus totally ignored TCP/IP with N2 even though
the Internet is huge, and it's how its customers want the game speaks
volumes

Papyrus is a long way from ID or any other company that knows how to
treat it's loyal customers, and who's concern is the quality of its
stuff, and the love of creating games. This is obviously a business
for the Sierra crew.  

Just my opinion.

Richard
----

Senior System and Database Administrator
Premiere Technologies, Inc -  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
----
For Internet based racing, visit the IGN:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
----
"There are only two industries on this planet that would use a term like "user" for its customers:
the computer industry and the drug cartels."

I don't get the point on this one....

....or this one, either.

Oh, oh, technical talk... :)

Obviously, it's a business...but just as obvious is how bigger companies
handle product support. Papy "seemed" better about this before they were
bought, perhaps that's just "rose-colored" preception, but the general
public seems to be in agreement here. Of course, being a smaller company
with less releases, you're afforded the luxury of focusing on a couple
products, rather than 50 or whatever.

---Sammy Marks

Why join TEN before NROS if that's all you want to play? It sounds
like joining a country club that doesn't offer tennis yet and paying
dues for a while until they offer tennis. Why not just wait until they
offer what you want and then join? I don't see the fault on Papyrus
for people deciding to join TEN for reasons that are illogical.

Geez, it's been a whole 10 or 11 months and a smallish game company
hasn't released a new title? What could possibly be wrong?

What God-given right do you claim to get whatever information you
desire directly from Papyrus? Papyrus (along with any other company or
individual) has a right to decide how to handle its affairs regarding
PR.

Is there a standard TCP/IP stack for DOS? (I'm not aware of one...)
How many (in percentage) of DOS machines support TCP/IP? How many
support IPX? That's a pretty telling comparison. N2 is a DOS game. At
the time it was released, there was no nice way to tell Win95 to get
the hell out of the way and let a real-time game run in
real-time. (AFAIK, there still isn't a perfect way.)

Of course it's a business. Would you have it any other way? There's
nothing stopping anyone from starting a non-"business" game
company. Problem is, food, clothes and housing cost money; therefore,
talented programmers don't tend to work for free for very long. Game
companies without talented developers don't stick around very long. ID
is every bit a business; that's how they pay their folk.

People love to rail on and on about Sierra and EA as examples of "How
not to do X, Y, or Z." Certainly quality titles have come from other
companies, but a lot of crappy titles have come from other
companies. Sierra and EA have had their hits and their misses. Both
are concerned about the quality of their stuff and have employees who
love creating games. (I'm sure both have employees that don't care
about either as well...)

---Jim

N2 was released in 1996. November I believe. Ten started promoting
NROS prior to that. The demo was out over a year ago.

Well, why was N2 packaged with TEN and why were all the Papyrus web
pages informing people NROS would be out Feb <then Mar, June, etc>.

Also, TEN informed people that unless they joined by Dec 31 they would
not get the 'preferred' pricing plan. Seeing how NROS was ~Feb-Mar
release many joined TEN to get the lower pricing prior to Dec 31.
They have had NROS on their page for a long time.

Smallish? Seems like Sierra is one of the big dogs. It has nothing to
do with a new title. It has to do with people joining an online
service and paying good money for vaporware that STILL isn't out.
If you bought and paid for a car, and then was told 1/2 the
accessories wouldn't be there for another 11 months, wouldn't you be
pissed? Same concept. Except software developers are exempt from
normal business concepts. At least in your opinion.

I'm a PAYING customer you arrogant ass. I  pay for Papyrus' existence,
as well as everyone else. How do you think Papyrus even exists?  I
don't demand to know what Papyrus is doing. But when I'm paying for a
service, one deserves to know whats going on, right? I guess NROS is
only a TEN endeavor, then. Everything about it is coming from TEN.

 You can run DOS games from Win95 with an Internet connection active.
I play N2 while connected to the Internet right now. How many people
have an IPX connection at home, vs TCP/IP?  Papyrus did what was
easier for them, not better for the customer. Perhaps it was a
business decision. However, it would be nice to not be lied to and fed
vaporware stories. There are also numerous TCP/IP stacks for DOS.
The popularity of the Internet has been large long before N2 was
released.

Nope, but you miss the point of what makes THIS business successful.
For a great example look at what Sierra has done to FPS titles.
You obviously think software developers and games companies are exempt
from common sense rules of business.

You can't compare Software development, and especially game
programming to other business. The concept is ludicrous. If a normal
company had promised a deliverable and had people paying for it a year
ahead of time, they'd go out of business. My complaint is of Papyrus
and TEN's vaporware trail.

Richard

----

Senior System and Database Administrator
Premiere Technologies, Inc -  http://www.premierecom.com
----
For Internet based racing, visit the IGN:
http://www.applink.net/rscott/ign/welcome.htm
----
"There are only two industries on this planet that would use a term like "user" for its customers:
the computer industry and the drug cartels."

Big snips coming up...

This is one clear case where even the Papy supporters have to admit
that Sierra looked at the numbers and made an pro-MBA type decision,
rather than a pro-customer decision. In their defense, they do tech
support WAY, WAY cheaper than Papy did, which is why they decided to
move it out west.

Another factor which was temporary and largely gone is that on the day
of the cutover, lots of knowledge was embodied in their Watertown tech
support staff, and very little in the Sierra replacements. This has
gotten a lot better over time (based solely on hearsay from this
group.)

---Jim

There has to come a time, that NRO will become to much of a burden to
continue if problems with it are not resolved in a reasonable amount
of time. The bean counters at Sierra will start screaming before long
to either fix it or forget it. If they have not already.

Would love to hear a reply from someone at Papy or Sierra  on Ten and
NRO, it seems to be too quite for a project that was suppose to be so
great. And I speak after $1,200 of phone bills  on Hawaii, that my
Bean Counter (wife) yelled + WTF is this...

Need help:::::::::(
In more ways then one. :|

Here's my problem,

well when I was born, Sorry wrong problem.

Okay, I'm trying to convert Nascar tracks to Indycar2 tracks.
I have done everything. When I start the process everything looks good.
I see copy file ect. then at the end I get Error patching data file.

Help please.  or I will be forced to tell my life story.

Greg "Pokey" Gash

Hey Hey!!!

Is there a league (or few) operating for ICR1?

If so, what are the addresses??

What is competition like??  (Competitive times at Australia?)

What is required to race?  (Besides internet, computer yadda yadda!!)

What the hell does "BGN" stand for? (I'm new here!!)

Are '97/'98 CART tracks for ICR1 available over the net?? (eg Gateway,
Fontana, Homestead, yadda yadda)

Thanks!!

lee