rec.autos.simulators

I have issued 4 cancels for large binary files (average size 299,842
characters - total size 1,199,371 characters) posted to 4 different
unmoderated discussion groups in the rec hierarchy as follows:
   1 rec.travel.marketplace
   1 rec.games.video.arcade.collecting
   1 rec.autos.simulators
   1 rec.arts.sf.science

This pointer is being posted to each affected group.

Each of the groups listed above is an affected group, meaning that at
least one binary file was canceled from that group.  If you want to see
exactly which file that was or the criteria that I used to select it,
read the full report in the newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.announce.
The full report is the parent article to this message, and has the same
subject.  It has been cross-posted to alt.nocem.misc and alt.retromod.

There has been a long-standing consensus among news administrators that
binaries belong in binaries newsgroups, and not elsewhere.  There also
seems to be a consensus supporting the cancellation of large binaries in
discussion groups as long as appropriate protocols are followed.

In my opinion, the best way to distribute binary files is via ftp or
the web.  With the ready availablity of ftpmail servers, even uucp
sites can retrieve binaries from ftp sites.

However, if you really must post a binary to Usenet, please post it to
an appropriate binaries newsgroup such as alt.binaries.misc.  Then, if
you like, post something in the appropriate discussion group telling
people where to find the binary in the binaries group (a pointer to
the binary).  This will permit news administrators and users to decide
for themselves whether to receive the binary files.

Please direct public feedback to news.admin.net-abuse.misc and private

unmoderated binaries group in the hierarchies that I scan, I don't know
about it yet.  Feel free to enlighten me.

Best wishes,
***
--

It's over, and can't be helped, and that's one consolation, as they
  always say in Turkey, when they cut the wrong man's head off''
  -- Charles***ens

Thanks buddy. Do me a favor - don't do me any more favors. I would rather
see arcade related stuff here than in some bin newsgroup which is just a
hideout for hacked accounts and warez that turns over DAILY!

Sounds like this guy would be in favor of the "net-***" bill.

I think this guy has too much free time.

(rant'n rave mode off)

And I was going to grab the Food Fight stuff tonight...sniff...

Could somebody email me a copy? Pul-leeze?

Virtu-Al

Dick Depew was on the Usenet before you had any idea that such a network
could possibly exist. ARMM has been an institution on Usenet for many years
now.

Let me explain HOW he's doing everyone -- including yourself -- a favor.
First, when (by way of technical mishap or personal malice) a flood of
identical articles begin flooding into the newsgroups, he issues a
notice that such an event has occured, so that (1) it doesn't have to
be propigated all over the world and (2) you and I don't have to wade
through all the ***that's produced.

Second, when binaries are posted to non-binary newsgroups, there are
several problems that may ensue. Some service providers don't have the
storage space to store binaries in their news spool. Of course, they
don't carry any of the *.binary.* newsgroups; however, if binaries
start showing up in non-binary newsgroups, they will stop carrying
those groups. *WHUMP*. You've just prevented a bunch of people from
accessing your newsgroup. You lose information. And, if you'd be willing
to look at it without being very selfish, you'd see that you've
pissed them off. Furthermore, many readers (especially in European
countries) use off-line news readers (since, as you may be aware,
all phone service, including local service, is billed by the minute).
When binaries (which tend to be large files) are posted to non-binary
newsgroups, you will often cause these readers to download files ranging
from 200k to 1M on the average; you are costing these readers -- end
users, like yourself -- time and money; you're wasting someone else's
time and money to download a file they don't even want.

What*** Depew is doing is *not* censorship. Quite to the contrary; he
does the bare minimum necessary to keep Usenet flowing. If he didn't,
broken gateways, spammers, and random binaries would make it unusable --
which would effectively censor the whole medium.

--

  No problem is so formidable that you can't just walk away from it.

: >Binary posts do not belong in unmoderated discussion groups.

: (stuff deleted about his cancelbot doing everybody a favor)

: Thanks buddy. Do me a favor - don't do me any more favors. I would rather
: see arcade related stuff here than in some bin newsgroup which is just a
: hideout for hacked accounts and warez that turns over DAILY!
[snipped]

Actually we have our own binary newsgroup devoted to autos.simulators

check out alt.binaries.simulators.autos

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Well, I hope he does continue deleting the damn stuff. It's okay for you
folks in Uni with your optical several hundred gigabytes per second link
up - binaries are downloaded or skipped no problem.

When you are PAYING to download this stuff then it's nice to get ALL the
messages from this group (which I want to read) and just the headers
from binaries so I can pick them up later if I want 'em,

You're not the only one using this ya know!

Cheers!
John

                      _________________________________
          __    _____|                                 |_____    __
_________|  |__|    :|          John Wallace           |     |__|  |_________

  \     :|  |::|    :|       Team WW Racing TSW        |     |::|  |      /
    >   :|  |::|    :|_________________________________|     |::|  |    <
  /     :|__|::|____:/         -=Ayrton Senna=-        \.____|::|__|      \
/_______:/  \::/    Racing is in my ***, it's part of me   \::/  \._______\

I've been checking it out every day for the last 2 or 3 weeks and there
has not been a single posting (other that the odd spam).  Is this group
ever used?

--
Gary Beeton - SED Systems Inc.
--

This makes him a boyscout, no more, no less..... but GOD?
BTW, he seems quite selective about the groups he chooses to
"protect". But I guess the poor fellow has to sleep sometime.
Afterall, SAVING the Internet from itself is tiring work.

Gee, disk drives are pretty cheap these days..... I'd consider getting
a better ISP.

As far as I'm concerned, you're wasting bandwith if you actually read
news while ONLINE. But I guess if your a NET GOD, thats okay.

Step into the 90's, will ya? I download ALL headers in subscribed
groups, and all bodies that are 100 lines or less, and NEVER miss a
message I want. You should consider an upgrade to a decent newsreader.

If it ain't censorship, then perhaps you can come up with a new term
and send if off to Websters for the benefit of all mankind.
You didn't happen to have a hand in the "U.S. Telecom Reform", did ya?

P.S. Perhaps EagleScout*** "McCarthy" Depew could give you a few
pointers, like "Thou shall not crosspost!"

Your friend (Who does NOT cancel other's POSTS),

William Leventry

----

Like Al McCormick said, we shouldn't have to go looking around in some obscure BIN
newsgroup that are wildly erratic hacker zones and such just because some people
can't handle the feed, pay for their downloads, etc.. your system must also grow to
fit the times, people. If you can't handle the feed than its your problem to find a
way around it. Limiting data because it is deemed "binary" is not the way to do it.

If the binaries were spread out to cover their respective groups (as they should be)
then there would be little problem because, atleast in the case of
rec.games.video.arcade.collecting (RGVAC), we get maybe 1 or 2 binaries a month,
which is beans to any kind of feed, even when you're paying for it per byte.

Sending out 'cancelbots' or whatever you call those virus-like automations is, in
itself, bad form, in my opinion because they are an active mechanism that destroys
the propigation of data that someone else put into place, without regard to the
content. This smacks of computer-like, mechanized thinking that allows no room for
reason or exception, which (again, in my opinion) is incompatible with the internet
as a concept.

I'm sorry, but I thought NO ONE 'ran' the internet, and so for some yo-yo to decide
on his own what's right and wrong, and act on that decision with 'cancelbots' is a
little out-of-bounds.

I realize that I'll probably get plenty of FLAME mail as a result of these opinions,
but they are, nevertheless, mine. So send 'em on and I'll get 'em over to /dev/null
ASAP.

Thanks

Kevin

* Oh yes.. My opinions in no way reflect the collective opinion of RGVAC .. They are
my own, dammit! MINE MINE MINE *

: Sending out 'cancelbots'

Hmm... how about a new game... "Cancelbot Killers"

I'm all for binaries in our group (rec.games.video.arcade.collecting -
since this is crossposted).  As was mentioned before, there are
relatively few, and it can be somewhat difficult to get them out of the
other binary group (alt.binaries.pictures.misc).  I was only able to get
a few of them that were posted there a few weeks ago.

For people who read offline, I just started to use Free Agent, and it
has an option that will completely ignore a file over XXX bytes.  That
lets you easily skip those.  Not only that, but if all binaries are
labeled as "BIN:Crazy Climber Instructions" then you can tell your
newsreader to ignore all headers starting with BIN*.

It's only my opinion, but I don't think that many people are paying by
the minute on  a relative scale.  I see a *few* AOL, compusuck, and
fraudidgy accounts (yes I understand that not every little town has a
provider).  So I'm not really sure why the minority should get their
way.  Well, actually, I suppose that's the American way- but that's
another topic.

By the way, what do you guys pay per minute?  A 100K image takes less
than a minute to d/l over a 14.4 modem, so even if you spend an extra
minute, so what?  Maybe there's a maximum of 5 images a month.  As long
as the people posting them do a little work, and use some color
reduction, resizing, and a little compression, all images should be under
a 100K.  I thought that the 300K images that were posted here (and
started all this) were MUCH bigger than necessary.  I downsized them
myself with very little loss is quality before saving them in my colletion.

Rant mode off.

Michael.

Just because you are able to SAY something, doesn't make it correct -
and just because no-one is supposed to run the 'net doesn't mean we
should descend to anarchy. Self-policing is what we are talking about.

If you are unprepared to consider the problems of others and only look
out for yourself, then why not go off and play with your Sega until
you're grown-up enough to use a PC and co-exist with others.

I mean come on, how DIFFICULT can it be to click on another group?! If
that avoids me having to pay for a one hour 'phone bill for downloading
some demo which I already have (happened several times) then surely it's
a small concession? Not all countries have such cheap 'phone costs as
the US and not everyone has fast access. No-one's trying to stop the net
growing, I'm just hoping to start some of its users considering other
people.

John

                      _________________________________
          __    _____|                                 |_____    __
_________|  |__|    :|          John Wallace           |     |__|  |_________

  \     :|  |::|    :|       Team WW Racing TSW        |     |::|  |      /
    >   :|  |::|    :|_________________________________|     |::|  |    <
  /     :|__|::|____:/         -=Ayrton Senna=-        \.____|::|__|      \
/_______:/  \::/    Racing is in my ***, it's part of me   \::/  \._______\

PLEASE *DON'T* POST BINARIES TO NON-BINARY GROUPS!

For those of us with good providers (including me nowadays),
it's no fuss no muss.  But the reality is that there are
plenty of smaller providers that will drop a group like
a hot potato if they see binaries on it because they don't
have the resources to download it and store it.  There are
also people who pay by the byte/minute and some don't have
the choice to change that (like in Europe).

Who said anything about keeping the net from growing?

In my opinion, they shoudn't.  See above for why.

Well, true, you are a lamer.  But not because of this opinion. ;^)
And last I checked, your voice only counted for 33% of a vote.  :^o

And posting something big that will get propogated to a million nodes around
the world in the wrong/non-binary group when only 5 people are interested is
not the way to do it either.
(OK.  So I'm being a little extreme in my example)

How quickly that would change...
OK.  Maybe how quickly I've seen it change in some other groups.
Maybe RGVAC wouldn't.

I thought they only killed SPAMs in which case I'm happy they're out
there as I'm sure someone in alt.bikini.wax doesn't want a videogame
binary just as much as we don't want an image with a bikini in it! ;^)

As far as these posts that were killed, the only reason they were
killed was cross-posting to non-binary groups.

There are no official rules but there is generally accepted
netiquette and I have yet to find anything about it that I
find objectionable once I've found out WHY a particular
rule/law/convention is followed.  YMMV.

No flames, but `You'll get...The Arena!  Ha ha ha ha!'
Oops!  I mean you'll get my opinion.  The Wizard of Wor seems
to have jumped into the middle of the conversation.

--

#                Bite the bolt worrior.  Ha ha ha ha!                 #
#           - The Wizard in the arcade game `Wizard of Wor'           #

Some people PAY for every single byte of data they receive in this newsgroup
and they do NOT have a choice of which articles they pay or not.

Binaries are tens of times larger than a normal article and hence cost some
people quite considerably. Not to mention that they take lots of HD space,
which unlike hardware manufacturers want you to believe is not infinite.

Yeah,***the losers, they are lame anyway. Probably communists too,
let's go get them!

                        -TPP

JW> If you are unprepared to consider the problems of others and only
JW> look out for yourself, then why not go off and play with your Sega

Harsh.....but fair.

JW> I mean come on, how DIFFICULT can it be to click on another group?!
JW> If that avoids me having to pay for a one hour 'phone bill for
JW> downloading some demo which I already have (happened several times)
JW> then surely it's a small concession? Not all countries have such
JW> cheap 'phone costs as the US and not everyone has fast access.
JW> No-one's trying to stop the net growing, I'm just hoping to start
JW> some of its users considering other people.

Well said!

Cheers!

---
 * RM 1.3 U0414 * Back up my hard drive?  Where's the reverse gear?

What anarchy? How does allowing a newsgroup that I read to have the occasional binary
that is typically less than 40K equate to anarchy? It would take your provider very
little time to get files of this size and it really shouldn't take YOU long at all to
download a measly 40K. And that's assuming it happened every day. But as long as I
have used RGVAC, I have seen maybe 5 or 10 binaries posted.

Boy, that's sure a threat to your precious, fragile usenet conventions!

I knew it would come to this. The insults. John, I'm sorry you can't handle a
reasonable level-headed discussion on this topic. Truth is, I do not own a SEGA, and
probably never will. I am, however, an administrator for a local service provider who,
by the way, charges a flat $20/month for access. Maybe your provider (or however you
get your internet) should get in touch and catch up with the rest of us. I'm around
PC's all day and I co-exist well with others (always have). I am simply stating that
the idea of restricting growth on the internet just to help some poor-boy provider
gouge his customers is not the way to do it. And, more directly, sending out cancel
bots to destroy data that others have posted is WRONG WRONG WRONG. Its a malicious
attack, plain and simple. Your hero who makes it his business to destroy other
people's data on a regular basis it no better than the stereotypical 'hacker' -- a
regualar RTM. Of course, RTM did it without malice. This guy KNOWS what he's doing.

Seriously, the insults are a little lame, John.

VERY! Especially when the groups are regularly overran by warezzzzz pirates and what
have you. Sorting through all the ***to find my simple, modest < 20K file is
prohibitively difficult.

If there are ones too poor to pay for a few thousand K of more data over the span of a
month, then why isn't it left up to THEM to install software to weed out the
undesirable data? There's plenty of it out there that can look for common
characteristics in netnews posts. ( "begin 644", etc.) In my view, its wrong to slow
everyone else down to such a degree so the small percent of people we are talking
about can play catch-up. Of course, if you're using AOL or COmpuserve, or something
else equally as commercial, then that's YOUR PROBLEM. The internet ran JUST FINE
before Compuserve and AOL jumped aboard bringing in the 'typical consumer' with their
typical comsumer-like problems.

What in GOD's name are you downloading LONG DISTANCE for, anyway??

I agree that you are not actively trying to keep the net from growing, but
nevertheless, your advocacy of segrigating the data and destroying the 'stray' data
amounts to exactly that. Think about it. Your hero up there who sends out the cancel
bots has no idea what the data contains and doesn't really seem to care. He only goes
by some half-thought-out decree that all binaires outside of 'special' binary groups
should be hunted down and destroyed, period. This is actively LIMITING GROWTH.

It is unreasonable to expect a user such as me to go into one of those binary groups
and weed through all the ***to find my little < 40K picture of a classic arcade
game. I mean, come on people!

History has shown that eventually everything grows and those that are left behind must
either catch-up or go elsewhere. Same applies here. We need growth on the internet,
and specifically in USENET. We do not need more and more restrictions and
self-proclaimed G-Men out hunting down our data and destroying it at their own will.

If the net is to grow, then we must say 'to hell' with the stupid useless mindset that
a few anal-retentive system administrators out there seem to have regarding the binary
images. It should be up to the stragglers to either invent new ways to get around
their problems, or use old methods to weed-out the undesirable files.

This is how internet has always worked and is why it has grown so sucessfully over the
past 20 years. I see no need to change that now.

Thanks for listening to my opinions!

Kevin

I know that, for competitive reasons, there are plenty of other providers
throughout the country that offer same or cheaper service.

A 100K binary file will not cost very much extra even to someone
unfortunate/uneducated enough to pay per byte.

Paying per minute? 100K takes about a minute or two at 14,400 BPS.

Do you use TIA, SLIP, PPP and web software like netscape? If so, you get hundreds
of K of data every minute.

Hey.. not a bad idea. AOL is my first choice. Talk about gouging your customers
and playing on their computer illiteracy.. sheesh.

Kevin