rec.autos.simulators

by **Txl** » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:52:28

ok the it was 90, but I am to say that in 89 it was Senna's fault...

When your front wheel is at the level of the other DRIVER not his front
wheel or front wing then you are DEFINITELY not in front and can't expect to
get the room for free, and as I recall Senna used the whole of the pit entry
to make his move, not like poor RS who got ***ed in nurburg for using part
of the pit EXIT but senna had his 4 wheels over the line...

Ah, it feels good to be young again with these memories, next thing we'll
talk about Mansell blowing a tire in the last race of the season in 84...

And finally I still think that the nicest looking F1 of all times was the 90
Ferrari.

--
The first ever pinball ezboard !!
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> > Reminds me of the Senna crashing into the Ferrari of Prost at Suzuka in
> 92,
> > same trick, when there is no space, don't try to go in it with your
> toy-like
> > car that goes into pieces at the slightest touch...

> Well, in 92 Prost was enjoying a holiday after bad-mouthing the Ferrari in
> 91 and leaving the team. In 91 Senna blitzed the field then let Berger
> through to win on the last lap, while Prost brought his sad Ferrari home
in
> 4th (I think). In 90, Senna deliberately punted Prost out on the first
> corner. He wasn't trying to make a pass where there was no room, and he
> didn't care if he took himself out, as he was simply ramming Prost off the
> road to avenge the previous year's coming together. In 89 Prost tried the
> overly ambitious move at the chicane, putting the car where there was no
> space, which put them both out.

> Stephen

by **Stephen F** » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:20:45

Or his first championship in 1991... :-)

1991 Jordan is also up there for me, although GPL has given me a new
appreciation of the 1967 Eagle, but I think this is somehow related to the
beautiful detail of the GPLEA car, but undoubtedly it's wonderful to see all
the mechanical bits out in the open.

Stephen

by **Stephen F** » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:34:38

> > Reminds me of the Senna crashing into the Ferrari of Prost at Suzuka in
> 92,
> > same trick, when there is no space, don't try to go in it with your
> toy-like
> > car that goes into pieces at the slightest touch...

> Well, in 92 Prost was enjoying a holiday after bad-mouthing the Ferrari in
> 91 and leaving the team. In 91 Senna blitzed the field then let Berger
> through to win on the last lap, while Prost brought his sad Ferrari home
in
> 4th (I think). In 90, Senna deliberately punted Prost out on the first
> corner. He wasn't trying to make a pass where there was no room, and he
> didn't care if he took himself out, as he was simply ramming Prost off the
> road to avenge the previous year's coming together. In 89 Prost tried the
> overly ambitious move at the chicane, putting the car where there was no
> space, which put them both out.

> Stephen

Sorry, my mistake. Senna went for a very questionable pass and Prost firmly
shut the door, putting them both out.

Stephen

by **na_bike** » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:24:38

On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:47:14 +0100, "Stephen F."

> He wasn't trying to make a pass where there was no room, and he
>didn't care if he took himself out, as he was simply ramming Prost off the
>road to avenge the previous year's coming together. In 89 Prost tried the
>overly ambitious move at the chicane, putting the car where there was no
>space, which put them both out.

That wasn't the only reason. All weekend he had been whining about the
pole position being in the dirty part of the track(i.e. off the
racingline) and stated before the race that if they didn't change it,
anyone that beat him into T1 on the outside he would take with him
right off the track. And he did.

He could be a right a**hole sometimes... :(

by **Mark Foste** » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:24:13

Quite right... I watched the formation lap, and the start all from JPMs
onbord camera and it is quite clear that he was NOT in front of MS at
the time he started to force MS up on to the kerb (where else was he
expected to go?). MS then had sevely reduced directional control and
understeered off the kerb into the side of JPM.

At his closest point to the kerb, JPM can have been no more than 2 feet
from it. Certainly less than half a cars width.

The external camer views bear this out and All of the coomentators on
the F1 Digital+ feed, JW, BE, DH and the other two all agreed that it
was JPM at fault.

Some people here should maybe get their eyes tested :-)

--
Mark Foster, University of Sussex Computing Service, Falmer, UK. BN1 9QJ

-------------------------------------------------
"There are no such useless words as...'I didn't have a chance.'"
[Driving, HMSO]

by **Mark Foste** » Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:58:20

Apparently the telemetry from Sennas car shows that his right foot was
firmly planted all the way up to impact. Having not seen it, I could not
say how trues this is but there certainly didn't appear to be ANY
attempt at braking for what is normally quite a slow corner.

--
Mark Foster, University of Sussex Computing Service, Falmer, UK. BN1 9QJ

-------------------------------------------------
"There are no such useless words as...'I didn't have a chance.'"
[Driving, HMSO]

by **David Ewin** » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 02:19:56

> 1991 Jordan is also up there for me, although GPL has given me a new
> appreciation of the 1967 Eagle, but I think this is somehow related to the
> beautiful detail of the GPLEA car, but undoubtedly it's wonderful to see all
> the mechanical bits out in the open.

The 1967 Eagle is a beauty! I've had the chance to see it close up at the US
Grand Prix the last couple of years. They've had an historic car parade on
Friday and Saturday and the cars are all parked together under a tent when they
aren't on the track, allowing you to walk right up to it. A stunning machine.

Dave Ewing

--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing

*****************************************************

by **Ian** » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:59:32

Partially, but less than half a cars length.

Half a car space is NOT enough to fit a car. As there was a car there he
should have left at LEAST a WHOLE cars width.

They were both going into a corner so I'm pretty sure they were both braking
as hard as possible so couldn't have slowed any more. MS particularly
because JPM forced him onto the kerb which has less grip than asphalt.

Totally different, Senna had every intention of causing an accident. It
decided the title.

So because this was in a F1 car MS should have backed off ? I thought it was
up to BOTH drivers to try and avoid a collision.
If the contact points had been reversed and MS touched JPMs front wing then
.......

As John Watson said at the time, "MS wants to win championships, JPM just
wants to beat MS"
--

Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>

by **Txl** » Sat, 23 Mar 2002 08:33:21

--
The first ever pinball ezboard !!
http://pub7.ezboard.com/bpinball

> > well, when you look at the incar from JPM BEFORE the turn you see 2
> > things...

> > 1) He was CLEARLY in front

> Partially, but less than half a cars length.

According to the FIA rules "partially" is enough, you cannot "attack" a guy
if your front wheel is not in front of his or something like that..

No because he was in front, you cannot ask the guy in front to leave the
door open and the apex free

JPM was in front 300 meters before the braking point, MS should have
accepted that as usual he took a shit start, his zigzagging didn't save him
front being overtaken by JPM and that was it

Well, when MS won his first title be punted Hill, and when villeneuve won
his title MS tried to punt him too

I was mentioning this point becuas ewhen you are in a toy car where a part
is flying away as soon as you touch something you REALLY want to avoid
contact, in truck racing, well, it's different, sometimes you NEED contact
to slow you down because you brake 10-15m too late and you "rest" on the guy
in front, a bit like in go karts..

by **Ian** » Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:26:28

Comments in the appropriate places below.

--

Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>

The rules state that you can't put your car in such a place as to cause an
accident. If part of the car is inside and you turn in you WILL cause an
accident.

He was not in front, he was ALONGSIDE

At no point was JPM even a car length in front, let alone 300 metres. Which
race are we talking about ?

I thought we wre talking about Malaysia 2002 ?

- Show quoted text -

So whats good for truck racing is wrong for Schumacher ?
Jeez !

I really believe that if this incident had been with JPM and D Coulthard
that this thread would never have even started. Some people just like to
jump on any incident involving Schumacher.
Let's face it, Senna was at least as guilty as Schumacher of dodgy incidents
for WCs but he was (is) considered a god.

by **Greg Cisk** » Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:36:28

Well all I can say is speedvision sure as hell didn't have
*THAT* angle :-)

--

> > From the angles I saw he wasn't anywhere near the inside
> > curb.

> Erm... http://home1.gte.net/bhelland/jpm-ms1.jpg

> I didn't see the race itself, so I can't really draw any conclusions about
> who did what and why. But we all know how little grip there is on a kerb.
> Imagine applying the brakes where Shumi is, then coming back into contact
> with the tarmac - no small wonder he got understeer...

> briGuy

by **Greg Cisk** » Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:38:47

Some people here are at the mercy of speedvision!
I agree for that one angle MS was clearly on the curb,
no problem!

--

> --
> Mark Foster, University of Sussex Computing Service, Falmer, UK. BN1 9QJ

> -------------------------------------------------
> "There are no such useless words as...'I didn't have a chance.'"
> [Driving, HMSO]

by **Txl** » Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:45:58

comments in the same place

--
The first ever pinball ezboard !!
http://pub7.ezboard.com/bpinball

> Comments in the appropriate places below.

> --

> Ian P
> <email invalid due to spam>

> > > > 1) He was CLEARLY in front

> > > Partially, but less than half a cars length.

> > According to the FIA rules "partially" is enough, you cannot "attack" a
> guy
> > if your front wheel is not in front of his or something like that..

> The rules state that you can't put your car in such a place as to cause an
> accident. If part of the car is inside and you turn in you WILL cause an
> accident.

If you are in front then the car inside must NOT try to pass

- Show quoted text -

look at the incar cam from JPM, he was definitely in front

- Show quoted text -

JPM was in front 300 meters before the braking point, he was not 300m in
front, but when you look at his incar cam you can see that after the turn
from MS at the start JPM is coming alongside and with better traction or
better start MS's car is disappearing from JPM's in car cam

- Show quoted text -

Yes but it's just a reminder that MS doesn't hesitate to punt, Prost always
hesitated, Senna and MS never hesitate, different styles, great drivers but
different styles

- Show quoted text -

We do ot lose our front wing at turn 1 that's the diff so WE can do it, and
HE can't (punting).

See my former comment on Prost and Senna, I was personnaly a Prost fan and
not a Senna one, but as I said there were both great drivers it's just that
i think about this incident between MS and JPM it was clearly a mistake from
MS from STUPIDITY, his car was faster than JPM's (see time trial and the
race in australia), he didn't have the PATIENCE to wait for 5 or 10 laps
before making his move, just like he did in Australia, this time he tried
his "I'm the boss get out of MY way" and it didn't work, I guess of all
drivers JPM is DEFINITELY the wrong guy to do this to...

If you try to do this for WC like MS with HILL or MS and JV then it's ok,
doing this at T1 of race 2 of a season is a mistake and since I know a
little bit Jean TODT I'm sure he tols MS exactly this, he took 4 points and
he could/should have taken 10, in the worst case he would have taken 6 for
2nd place behind JPM, maybe it won't matter but is he misses the title by
few points then I'm sure he will wish he had let JPM go on this corner...

Ahh, I love these discussions where everybody stands his point but it's
constructiove and courteous...only on RAS can you have this..

by **Tony Rickar** » Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:59:31

My view it is more likely to happen at Race 2. Two drivers attempting to
establish mental superiority. It will more likely happen in the early races
rather than when the risk of losing points is too great.

They got away with it this time - only 2 points between them.

Certainly don't believe MS is stupid nor JPM a monster!

It was a racing incident between two drivers trying to establish their position
with each other. The stewards just got in the way IMHO.

It is easy for us to analyse it to death. In the heat of the momemt MS reckoned
he could hold the corner and JPM would be forced to let him have it, JPM
reckoned he had done enough and MS would back off. I think we could argue
forever who was at fault. The decisions the drivers take are based on
assumptions of what the other drivers will do. Part of the process is to
understand your fellow racers. This process takes place in the early part of the
relationship.

Senna was a master at intimidating other drivers by his unrelenting approach.
Schumacher probably has the closest approach of the current drivers but there is
a relatively new guy showing he won't be intimidated. Hence the battle of mental
strength.

I say let them sort it out. The last thing I want is a set of rules to turn
overtaking into a science and determine who is in front by 2mm has the right to
the corner. Heck they might even introduce modified parking sensors on the cars
to determine who has the corner - with a yield light flashing in the "overtaken"
drivers***pit.

There is nothing to gain for these two in tripping over each other.

We seem to be getting rule & penalty crazy. Senna always cut it fine when
trying to carry as much speed through a corner when following another car to get
a good exit for a possible overtake. He came to grief several times (Brundle at
Monza, Mansell at Adelaide for instance) and simply ran into the back of the car
in front. Totally unintentional, a simple misjudgment. Don't recall him being
penalised or being called stupid...

Tony

by **Aviato** » Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:32:01

An excellent prognosis. Heaven forbid, but you have offered a clear ,
concise accurate and logical synopsis of the incident.

Quite unusual in most newsgroups

Kudos

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