rec.autos.simulators

l8er
ronny

--
How to get rid of censorship in German game releases
<http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm>

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:51:28 -0400, "Charles Mak"

There is no real point in continued attempts to use logic against the
few emotional and blinded types that are associated with Papyrus's
products.  Its been almost a couple years since I have read any of the
posts associated with papy sims, and it hasn't really changed at all.
What really suprised me was that some of the people (such as Brian
Forbes) seemed to be quite rational in discussions about F1RS before
GPL came out.  Then all of a sudden, they turn into raving idiots who
can only respond with attempts at insulting anyone who tries to
discuss issues that don't heap praise on everything that is in the
game.  Oh well, I find it quite hilarious.  Of course, as with any
generalization, there are exceptions and there are quite a few
individuals who have presented in GPL threads some sound discussions
about racing car dynamics that I've found very interesting.  These few
make it worth while, imo, to at least skim through the other "me-too",
"praise be to papy", :"testify brother" type posts.

Yes, its acceptable to these people that the linear sensitivity is
allowed to be adjusted even if the real 1967 car had no such
adjustment (and in fact no real car has such an adjustment), but when
it applies  to something like an adjustment for the lack in current
wheel devices of varying force with varying speed, since it wasn't
part of Papy's initial design, no way, anathema to all infidels!
Whoops, almost trying to be logical there.  *** it.  it ain't worth
it.  I may buy the game, or I may not.  But I won't be bothered to
post about GPL again either.
.
See 'ya around in other locals and topics.

DS

l8er
ronny

--
How to get rid of censorship in German game releases
<http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm>

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

With that said, I want to say that I have some problems like the one you
describe. Mind you, I am a great fan of PAPYRUS, but also of MICROPROSE,
CODEMASTERS and every other company that comes up with good racing
simulations.

I have 2 computers, and the problem I describe occurs only in one of them.
Here are the main specs:

PC 1:
Motherboard: Hsing-Tech TX Pro
CPU: Intel Pentium MMX 166, overclocked to 250 (3 x 83 MHz); flawless for 8
months!
RAM: 2 x 32 Mb DIMM
HDD: Quantum Bigfoot 4.3 GB
Main VGA: ATI Rage II+ w/ 4 Mb
3d Accelerator: CL Blaster 2 Voodoo 2 w/ 8 Mb
Soundcard: Creative Labs SB 32 PnP
Joystick controller: Thrustmaster T2 wheel and pedals

PC 2:
Motherboard: Shuttle-HOT 569 (TX)
CPU: Intel Pentium MMX 200, overclocked to 250 (3 x 83 MHz); flawless for 4
months!
RAM: 1 x 32 Mb DIMM
HDD: Quantum Bigfoot 2.5 GB
Main VGA: Diamond Stealth II (Rendition 2100)  w/ 4 Mb
3d Accelerator: Apocalypse 3Dx  w/ 4 Mb + Miro Hiscore 3d Voodoo 1 w/ 6 Mb
Soundcard: Creative Labs SB 16 PnP
Joystick controller: PC Flight Force Pro (rather expensive for a joystick,
but very, very god!)

With the Thrustmaster, I experience some lag between steering input and game
reaction.
This does not occur on the other computer, with the Flight Force joystick.
In this case, fine steering corrections are much easier to do accurately,
when it would seem that it should be the other way around.

Frames rates in both cases are very good, so it is not a problem caused by
that. I don`t think it is the fault of the demo code either, because other
people with this or similar wheels score good times. I believe it must have
something to do with the joystick port, or its drivers. So maybe your
problem is similar. If possible, I would suggest that you try your
controller on another computer running The GPL demo, or maybe with another
soundcard. I will conduct some experiments about this as soon as possible,
including switching controllers on the 2 computers. If you, or anyone else,

I must also say that this is a very slight problem, because the game, in my
experience, rewards finesse over brutality at the steering. My best time
with the T2 is 1:09:54, which is not bad, but my best with the Flight Force
is 1:08:24. I can regularly run in 1:09`s with it, but I find very difficult
to go under 1:10 with the T2, so there must be something in this, as I`m the
same guy.

P.S.: I am writing this, as always, with good intention. I don`t want to
insult anyone. But I don`t like being insulted either. If any of the readers
of this message wishes to do so, please use e-mail, not a post. In either
case, the result will be the same: no reply.

Daniel Fris

Hi Charles,

sorry if this has been mentioned before, but are you using the optimized
controller feature of GPL? With straight DirectX, it is actually pretty
difficult to manage. But the "optimized" gadget helps a lot.

As for your complaints - I take it that you find the GPL difficult to
handle. I can understand that GPL can scare you away because it is fairly
sophisticated. But on the other hand, once you've managed to come to terms
with the car, it is _extremely_ rewarding, a great sense of achievement
and - tremendous _fun_ <g>

Don't give up. Try the optimized controller setting, maybe check your
steering wheel's pot, and try to take some time to get used to the very
realistic driving model. If you are a racing fan, you can't help but loving
it after a while, I'm convinced!

Achim

Hi John,

AHEM!! <g>

HI Dave,

mighty big words you're writing here ;-)

I have a few comments to make.

real conditions.<<

Of course this is desirable for those who have less-than-optimal
controllers. OTOH, those of us who think their controller are doing ok have
lots of fun with GPL  - although it still is realistically difficult to
master.

Papy could of course have addressed the controller problem, but I think
their goal was to create the ultimate realism in a simulation, i.e. the most
realistic simulation ever, and this simply doesn't allow them to make the
steering unrealistically easy only to compensate for lack of accuracy in
some controllers.

I find it rather admirable that a sim racing company like Papyrus
relinquishes revenue for the sake of realism, as they of course know that
the high requirements such a realistic sim poses will limit the magnitude of
the potential clientele. Wouldn't you agree that the fact that they are more
after ultimate realism than after ultimate money is a very respectable
attitude?

be adjusted even if the real 1967 car had no such adjustment (and in fact no
real car has such an adjustment)<<

Actually, such an adjustment exists in modern race cars, and even some
normal street cars, like the early European version of the Ford Taurus
(called Scorpio over here) had a non-linear steering curve (don't know about
the current one).

A non-linear steering curve is something absolutely common. I don't know
whether they had that at that time, but it is possible. And anyway - first
you complain about Papy not making compromises to allow users of
less-than-optimal controller here, and now that they give you something that
makes it a little easier, you complain, too... ;-)

Achim

--
Wolfgang Preiss       \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Uni des Saarlands       \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking...  Did he complain
to five or six postmasters last month?  Now, you must ask yourself one
question: "Do I feel lucky?"  Well, do you, punk?

Oh, er, and Achim liked it, which is the one thing I could never get
my brain to come to terms with! I have no problem with people liking
CPR, but when someone who's opinion I respect likes CPR then my brain
starts giving logic errors :-)

You really confused me on that one Achim - I hope you like GPL,
because I think that would be too much to cope with. I'm also
seriously looking forward to you, Rik and Doug duking it out at the
Nordschleife - Rik and Mike seem to hold tightly to Silverstone throne
laps, so you need to establish Germany's pre-eminence at The Ring.

Cheers!
John

Well, I said in my previous post that I wouldn't bother responding to
any further GPL related posts, but since your post is in response to
mine and since you make some exemplary points, I'll make one
exception.

Hold it right there for a moment.  Without apparently knowing anything
about the hardware that I am using, you make several false assumptions
that since someone brings up the issue of modifying the controller
input in GPL, that they must have a problem with their equipment; that
they are unhappy with the game; and that they dislike the way the car
handles.

Oh, I see! GPL is a realistic simulation, so, it can't possibly be
realistically  driven by the keyboard or a joystick since no car (that
I know of) has ever been driven by such devices.  There is a keyboard
and joystick interface though, hmmm.

Ah, praise be to Papy, for such devotion to their altruistic
principles.  They even sold out to Sierra so that they could better
follow their dedicated path of non-monetary goals and develop games
only for those devotees that respect their true rendition of reality.

Obviously, you don't understand the purpose of the "reduce with speed"
adjustment.  It has been described in great detail by others in
previous posts , if you care to look back and re-read them.  Briefly,
it has to do with providing an adjustment for the lack of variable
force in normal game controllers that is inherently present in any
mechanically controlled vehicle that has variable inertial, momentum
and gyroscopic  forces acting on the steering controls.  This variable
force with speed is as common as linearity apparently, since its
included in every vehicle.  But others have explained it in better
terms.  Also, every sim (not just GPL) should have much better
calibration tools for such critical components of a simulation.  Even
some arcade games (eg. Barrage), has separate definable response
slopes for each input axis.

No complaints about linear adjustments.  Another false assumption on
your part.

Jjust for the record, I have a fairly decent computer system (dual
PPro233, 128MB) even if it is almost two years old.  With a 3dfx V1,
the frame rate with full detail is very smooth.  My controller is a
TSW wheel and pedals which if you don't know, is a fairly accurate
input device.  Although its also several years old, I have regularly
changed the pots and done routine maintenance so that there is minimal
spikes occurring.

I have never said that I have a problem with the steering in GPL. This
is another false assumption that you apparently made.  In fact, I
would expect a car such as is modeled in GPL to be extremely loose
upon braking at high speed.  It would seem to me that GPL is a very
accurate representation of the primitive technology that existed 30
years ago.

My point in this whole dialog is that GPL players (and Papyrus game
players) have an unusual tendency to jump to conclusions and make
false assumptions about anyone who attempts to criticize or find
anything that could possibly destroy the bubble of bliss that they
want to be enveloped in.  

Because of this, I find it almost pointless to continue any objective
and meaningful discussion with those that have such prejudice and
blinded devotion.  There are others in this ng who have more patience
and verbal fortitude than me who will (at least for a while) try to
make these issues known.

Hehe, anyways...In conclusion, I want to thank you for providing an
example of what I was talking about in my previous post.  It seems
that the real content of my post went wizzing right by your head (as
well as others, nothing personal).  This post will probably do the
same.  But, it doesn't really matter, carry on.

Over and Out.

DS