rec.autos.simulators

Upside Down Track Idea

istof

Upside Down Track Idea

by istof » Mon, 24 Nov 2003 01:56:45

Hi all.

After watching an IRL race, I was reminded of a common thing that
commentator's regularly mention.

"The downforce on these cars is so great that if the cars were running
upside down on the ceiling, the downforce would keep them in the air,
defying gravity..." yadda yadda yadda, you've probably heard this
before.

Are there any current games where the track editors available could be
used to demonstrate this extreme grip???

For example, could you get the banking angle so high that if you
dropped below a certain speed, the car would fall right off??

What about a track that looped into a "loop-de-loop", but continued
backwards in the direction you came??

                          <<<--inverted  car----------------\

start-->>> car--->>>  -------------------------loop up/

the above sketch is font sensitive, but you should get the idea??

The track would have to be a bit wider than normal because you
couldn't do kerbs and grass banking, etc, but I was wondering if any
of the existing editors would allow this.

It would preferably not be an arcade title, to state the obvious.   I
was wondering specifically if the open source sims could accomodate
this (Scirocco, Racer, etc).

any takers??

Finally,  I posted this a while ago (22 September 2003) and was
surprised to see no responses.  I've since checked my outbox on Agent
and have seen that I accidently posted it to ASSM.  I'm sure none of
you guys would have seen it though.  Suppose it was off topic there :)

Regards all,
istoff

John DiFoo

Upside Down Track Idea

by John DiFoo » Mon, 24 Nov 2003 03:38:34



Someone has a track in beta that has banking approaching 90
degrees (it's a short track), and cars apparently can stay up
there (AI has some problems tho).  Check out Project Wildfire
forums for more info.

A loop the loop or corkscrew where the centerline "crosses
over" itself as seen from the top view is apparently undoable:
your idea might work tho if I'm visualizing it correctly.

        John DiFool

Fillyourboot

Upside Down Track Idea

by Fillyourboot » Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:21:59




>> Hi all.

>> After watching an IRL race, I was reminded of a common thing that
>> commentator's regularly mention.

>> "The downforce on these cars is so great that if the cars were
>> running upside down on the ceiling, the downforce would keep them in
>> the air, defying gravity..." yadda yadda yadda, you've probably
>> heard this before.

>> Are there any current games where the track editors available could
>> be used to demonstrate this extreme grip???

>> For example, could you get the banking angle so high that if you
>> dropped below a certain speed, the car would fall right off??

> Someone has a track in beta that has banking approaching 90
> degrees (it's a short track), and cars apparently can stay up
> there (AI has some problems tho).  Check out Project Wildfire
> forums for more info.

> A loop the loop or corkscrew where the centerline "crosses
> over" itself as seen from the top view is apparently undoable:
> your idea might work tho if I'm visualizing it correctly.

>         John DiFool

Surely an 'upside down' tack would be unraceable. The downforce theory that
the original poster quoted is suitable for one car, but what about the
disturbance when cars race close together or collide - isn't that going to
compromise grip?

++
Fillyourboots

Jan Verschuere

Upside Down Track Idea

by Jan Verschuere » Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:35:51

It would make it fairly hard for a spinner to come back "up" into the racing
line. <vbg>

Seriously, it wouldn't be very practical, but it's an interesting thought
experiment.

Jan.
=---

Four furry fiend

Upside Down Track Idea

by Four furry fiend » Mon, 24 Nov 2003 06:05:58

Crashday and Trackmania are both games that will let you make your own
tracks, including vertical loops.  Not sure if any of the cars modelled in
either game would offer enough downforce to keep them in contact with long
upside down sections of track...not to mention if either game can model
longer upsidedown sections.

Sean


jon

Upside Down Track Idea

by jon » Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:47:35


> Seriously, it wouldn't be very practical, but it's an interesting thought
> experiment.

> Jan.
> =---

Do you all think the car upside down would have a higher top speed than the
one right side up, or vice versa? Or would they both have the same top
speed?
Rich

Upside Down Track Idea

by Rich » Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:37:01

One could always "fake" it by using those gravity boots that let you hang
from the ceiling.

Actually, having a loop for a track would be very unique.
What would you name it?  Rollercoaster Raceway?



> > Seriously, it wouldn't be very practical, but it's an interesting
thought
> > experiment.

> > Jan.
> > =---

> Do you all think the car upside down would have a higher top speed than
the
> one right side up, or vice versa? Or would they both have the same top
> speed?

Larr

Upside Down Track Idea

by Larr » Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:25:35

It would obviously be an Arcade racer.  Real-World Physics aren't a
consideration :)

-Larry





> >> Hi all.

> >> After watching an IRL race, I was reminded of a common thing that
> >> commentator's regularly mention.

> >> "The downforce on these cars is so great that if the cars were
> >> running upside down on the ceiling, the downforce would keep them in
> >> the air, defying gravity..." yadda yadda yadda, you've probably
> >> heard this before.

> >> Are there any current games where the track editors available could
> >> be used to demonstrate this extreme grip???

> >> For example, could you get the banking angle so high that if you
> >> dropped below a certain speed, the car would fall right off??

> > Someone has a track in beta that has banking approaching 90
> > degrees (it's a short track), and cars apparently can stay up
> > there (AI has some problems tho).  Check out Project Wildfire
> > forums for more info.

> > A loop the loop or corkscrew where the centerline "crosses
> > over" itself as seen from the top view is apparently undoable:
> > your idea might work tho if I'm visualizing it correctly.

> >         John DiFool

> Surely an 'upside down' tack would be unraceable. The downforce theory
that
> the original poster quoted is suitable for one car, but what about the
> disturbance when cars race close together or collide - isn't that going to
> compromise grip?

> ++
> Fillyourboots

Jan Verschuere

Upside Down Track Idea

by Jan Verschuere » Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:28:04

A sim car would be faster, I think, seeing as there's less rolling drag.

A real car, if the engine survived being upside down (which it wouldn't),
would be slower as the reduced rolling drag would be more than offset by the
engine losing power due to not all of the fuel mixture making it into the
engine and the the detonations not only having to overcome the torque
transmitted by the crankshaft but also the weight of the pistons and the
connecting rods.

Jan.
=---

Mark Seer

Upside Down Track Idea

by Mark Seer » Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:07:57

Would only work in sprint races. Pitstops might be tricky otherwise :-)

MS

druid

Upside Down Track Idea

by druid » Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:53:18


use a supercharger?

I'm not convinced about this one, some piston-engined aircraft had the
engine in an "upside-down" configuration (i.e. crank on top), many other
piston-engined aircraft are capable of flying inverted, and one could always
use a flat engine configuration (boxer) so that it would make no difference.

druidh

Fillyourboot

Upside Down Track Idea

by Fillyourboot » Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:38:52


> One could always "fake" it by using those gravity boots that let you
> hang from the ceiling.

> Actually, having a loop for a track would be very unique.
> What would you name it?  Rollercoaster Raceway?

I'd name it 'Monza', purely in deference to Christian Fittipaldi as came
closest to realising the vision of 360 inversion there.

1993?

++
Fillyourboots

Steve Blankenshi

Upside Down Track Idea

by Steve Blankenshi » Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:12:39



> > One could always "fake" it by using those gravity boots that let you
> > hang from the ceiling.

> > Actually, having a loop for a track would be very unique.
> > What would you name it?  Rollercoaster Raceway?

> I'd name it 'Monza', purely in deference to Christian Fittipaldi as came
> closest to realising the vision of 360 inversion there.

> 1993?

Hmmm - I'll have to have a look, as I think Monza '93 is next on tap in
Speed Channel's F1 Decade series.  Sunday nights; Spa was last night.  Those
full-active cars are interesting, especially when they go on the fritz.
Zanardi had a huge shunt at Eau rouge when his Lotus' active suspension
suddenly collapsed.  I'd forgotten how narrow it was back then.
Stephen F

Upside Down Track Idea

by Stephen F » Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:35:18





> > > One could always "fake" it by using those gravity boots that let you
> > > hang from the ceiling.

> > > Actually, having a loop for a track would be very unique.
> > > What would you name it?  Rollercoaster Raceway?

> > I'd name it 'Monza', purely in deference to Christian Fittipaldi as came
> > closest to realising the vision of 360 inversion there.

> > 1993?

> Hmmm - I'll have to have a look, as I think Monza '93 is next on tap in
> Speed Channel's F1 Decade series.  Sunday nights; Spa was last night.
Those
> full-active cars are interesting, especially when they go on the fritz.
> Zanardi had a huge shunt at Eau rouge when his Lotus' active suspension
> suddenly collapsed.  I'd forgotten how narrow it was back then.

And Berger turned 90 and speared straight across the main straight at
Portugal while exiting the pits when his active Ferrari failed and dropped
the back end to the ground.  Don't forget, the main straight leads into a
6th gear corner at Estoril, and there was traffic coming.
Ruud van Ga

Upside Down Track Idea

by Ruud van Ga » Wed, 26 Nov 2003 03:34:26



...

Yep, Racer seems to support this (I would have thought it had more
trouble with 90 degrees (vertical) polygons).
There is a track called 'Physics' aka 'The Stunt Track' by tahustvedt
which contains a looping (and contains a ramp a la Stunt Car Racer).
It's not exactly driving upside down for a long stretch, but it's nice
and generates excellent replays. ;-)
I even sat in a motion platform and tried the loop, but it really
feels strange then when you fall down, quite intense!

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/


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