rec.autos.simulators

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

Jan Verschuere

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by Jan Verschuere » Sat, 08 Dec 2001 03:31:39

There's not only the driver issue, but also reliability/build quality
problems.

Than most. ;-)

Seriously, it really is. More below.

The TSW2 is a very precise wheel and the build quality is excellent. Whether
or not you would want one ties in with another discussion. Is FF desirable
if one wants to go truly fast? -Personally, I think the answer is no... FF
feeds back into the steering and can act as a fear/caution trigger. It might
make you more consistent, but not quicker, IMO. So, if your ambition is to
make Huttu eat humble pie, FF is not for you. If not, it ads to the
immersion and fun factor.

That was my comment and I stand by it. I upgraded from the cable driven LWFF
to the MOMO because the old girl really started to show some wear and tear
(especially around the steering shaft) after 2+ years of use and because a
lot of people I trust in these matters were very positive about it. All I
can say is: I'm not dissapointed. This wheel is really a cut above the
previous one, even in mint condition. It has more lock, is more comfortable
to hold (leather provides grip for sweaty hands), more precise and the
pedals can be used without major modification/don't need to be replaced with
3rd party units. It also has stronger FF (i.e. more range!!*) and has
quicker response (about half the time of the LWFF), ergo it requires (other
than special beta drivers) more damping to get rid of spiking in GPL. I have
the setting at about double of what I used to have. The gear driven system
does take a bit of getting used to and, yes, it does sort of "wear in" and
smooth out with initial use (took about 8 hours of driving, I guess). I
think the cables in the previous model, together with the friction/slop in
the steering shaft assembly absorbed a lot of short/subtle transients, which
are felt in the MOMO. In short: I really like it.

Caution... subjective opinion ahead. If you looking to buy "a wheel" that is
exactly what you will end up buying: a wheel. In which case *any* wheel will
do, even those godawfull Trust ones. For your game selection FF is an
optional extra, rather than a requirement IMO. I even doubt whether a wheel
is even nescessary/usefull for Lego Racers. I usually break out my
opto-analog (non-FF) joystick for arcade games. Then again, I haven't played
it and neither do I know anyone who has (or, if do know them, they haven't
told me they did ;-)), so I might be wrong.

It's a wheel which exhibits a small "knock" in the middle as one moves it
from side to side. As if there were a "notch" at the top dead centre
position.

Depends on ones perspective. For me, as a "serious" simracer, absolutely.
It's a tool required for my hobby and it's of similar importance as a good
cue to an amateur pool player. If, on the other hand, one considers the
wheel more of a gadget, neigh gimmick to make racing games more
enjoyable/apealing, it still might be worth $100 extra, but only if one
intends to keep using it for quite some time. It's a lot of money to throw
at a fad.

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

(*) Note: Contrary to what another poster claimed, having a more "forcefull"
wheel does not necessarily mean one sets it up to experience higher force
levels. Though this can be done with the MOMO, the right thing to do, IMO,
is to set it up so the force level is the same overall as the earlier model,
but benifiting from the wider range (i.e. more nuances) in force levels.
Same as with audio equipment... why would one buy a 2x100Wrms amplifier if
2x1Wrms is already very loud indeed? Simple... because the sound from the
2x100Wrms one, operating at 1Wrms is a lot cleaner .

Jason Mond

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by Jason Mond » Sat, 08 Dec 2001 04:30:40

I think a "notchy" wheel is one in which you can feel the teeth of each
gear as you turn the wheel.  A FF wheel isn't purely smooth like a
non-FF wheel, but a high degree of "notchness" doesn't help when trying
to turn.


> "Jason Whorton" wrote...
> > Also, can someone further explain what a "notchy" feeling
> > wheel is?

> It's a wheel which exhibits a small "knock" in the middle as one moves it
> from side to side. As if there were a "notch" at the top dead centre
> position.

--
Jason Monds
http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (GPL)
http://www.scprc.com - Stock Car Division of the PRC. (N4, Fun Run Sims)
(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)
Jan Verschuere

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by Jan Verschuere » Sat, 08 Dec 2001 04:57:39

Gears which don't work smoothly are said to be gravely, not notchy. A notch
is a detent. The gears would have to have really big teeth for the rubbing
of each individual one to feel like a notch.

Ok, on really big, really quick corrections one can feel and hear the
friction in the gears, but I wouldn't describe that as notchy.

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

"Jason Monds"...

Mario Petrinovi

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by Mario Petrinovi » Sat, 08 Dec 2001 05:37:09

        Two days ago I did some experemetation with latency. My
setting for LWFF is 21ms, and I tried 20ms and 22ms. Test was
at Martinsville. And suddenly I started to feel notches at wrong
settings. Martinsville is place where you can easily have notches.
They come from sudden change in wheel positon, when your FF
is not in phase with simulation reality. Again it is wrong latency
setting that brings that things to happen. Another thing is spiky
steering pot.
        Because all this things that brings wrong latency setting,
Papyrus didn't want to introduce FF in the beginning. Wrong
latency isn't problem when you have canned efects. But when
your efects are calculated in real time, you've got to put efects
and simulation in phase. Othervise you have what we call in
online racing "warping".
        P.S.: I'm not an expert. Thats all is just IMHO. Any
correction is wellcome.


daisykillb

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by daisykillb » Sat, 08 Dec 2001 14:19:51

I've used my Act-Labs ForceRS with Shifter for about 15 months and it
ROCKS!

I did notice that the wheel became very smooth and quiet after about
four months of Rally Champ 2K.

I received the new pedals about a month ago and it is an entirely
different animal. I can finally have the most subtle control over
throttle and braking. And a clutch to boot.

I've looked at all the other systems below the A-L price range and
wasn't tempted. The higher-end stuff like TSW has no FF. I understand
that FF is subjective, but I can't live without it. I can feel when
the front wheels are loosing grip. The immersive quality is too much
for me. I try it with no FF, and go right back. Although, I never use
100% - too much fight in it.

So there's my two cents...

It seemed like a lot of cash at the outset, but I feel like I've got
my money's worth. And A-L has even sent my FREE parts via a FREE tech
support number when I wanted it, and I love their forum.
I wish that I felt as good about all the components that I've
purchased for my system!

J

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by J » Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:35:02

If you are in a country with ebay, try to locate a 2nd hand LWFF (non-GP)
You can upgrade it to ball bearings later, which makes it somehow comparable to
the MOMO (no leather though)

JensSchumi

On Wed, 5 Dec 2001 01:03:38 -0600, "Jason Whorton" <due to spam - please post


>Hello.  I am considering the purchase of a PC steering wheel.  Does anyone
>have any thoughts on which models to look for or NOT to look for?  I am
>leaning towards the red Logitech with force feedback (not the MOMO).

>Thank you,
>Jason Whorton

---------------------------------------------
LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at:
http://jensschumi.tripod.com/

GPLRank: -14.82
Monsters of GPL: sub 95

J

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by J » Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:35:03

Have to agree to Jason's posting.
The notchiness we always talked about was an ongoing rythmic mechanical
resistance, from one full deflection to the other side.

The rest of your post I second wholeheartedly.

JensSchumi

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:57:39 +0100, "Jan Verschueren"


>Gears which don't work smoothly are said to be gravely, not notchy. A notch
>is a detent. The gears would have to have really big teeth for the rubbing
>of each individual one to feel like a notch.

>Ok, on really big, really quick corrections one can feel and hear the
>friction in the gears, but I wouldn't describe that as notchy.

>Jan.
>=---
>"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

>"Jason Monds"...
>> I think a "notchy" wheel is one in which you can feel the teeth
>> of each gear as you turn the wheel.  A FF wheel isn't purely
>> smooth like a non-FF wheel, but a high degree of "notchness"
>> doesn't help when trying to turn.

>> <snip>

---------------------------------------------
LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at:
http://jensschumi.tripod.com/

GPLRank: -14.82
Monsters of GPL: sub 95

J

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by J » Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:35:02

hehe,
could be my post

JensSchumi


>>Get a TSW2. It's more expensive but you won't need or want anything else
>>after getting one ...

>Except for Force Feedback, maybe!     ;)

>Lol SpeedFreek (who can't drive without FF anymore)

---------------------------------------------
LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at:
http://jensschumi.tripod.com/

GPLRank: -14.82
Monsters of GPL: sub 95

Jan Verschuere

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by Jan Verschuere » Sun, 09 Dec 2001 03:38:58

Right... so I've always misread the intended meaning before. This explains
why I've never had any problems with "notchyness" (my definition) in wheels,
but it also means, IMO, the phenomenon has always been misnamed.<g>

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

Jan Verschuere

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by Jan Verschuere » Sun, 09 Dec 2001 03:57:13

21ms seems awfully high as a latency setting for any Logitech wheel to me. I
had my red LWFF at 5ms and the new MOMO one at 2.5ms

Not saying your setting is wrong for your system (or my setting is right for
mine), but it is a striking difference so I'd be temped to assume a ms
either way shouldn't matter and ergo that there is something wrong with the
setting in the first place if it does.

I'll install N4 again and have a quick check.

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

Mario Petrinovi

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by Mario Petrinovi » Sun, 09 Dec 2001 08:25:13

        Hi Jan! I payed attention when you talked to me. : )

        Just tried 5ms. At Michigan N4. Extremely pushy. Whole time car did
movements without my control, which I later had to correct. That's why I
really felt some subtle forces, but that forces were from car movements
without my control. That all clearly points to lag.
        With 21ms I have car completly under my control. I can drive on the
very edge, and can save car from imposible situations. If you find somewhere
LWFF, try Ring with 21 ms. When I first put wheel on 20ms (and later on
21ms ), I was shocked. I could go throgh corners where before I had
dificulties, with extreme easy. When I pushed too far I didn't go of the
road,like before, but managed to stay on track. At that time I was just
avarage driver and 20 (21)ms helped me to enjoy the ride. Long time I was
on 20ms, but, sometime ago, I tested once again, and found that 21ms is
even better.
        Two days ago I tried 22ms again, but it is clearly on the other
side. With 22ms FF gives you warning of things to came. I could drive
comfortably, but I found myself never go to the edge, because I've got
warning in advance. And my times worsened on tracks that I now very well.
        BTW, I'm not the only one that uses that settings. A lot of people
mentioned 20ms as right settings for LWFF. I can imagine that different
model of wheel have different values, but it looks that same model is preaty
consistent.
        This all is only IMHO. I'm not an expert, and maybe I'm crazy, but
for above mentioned I'm prety sure.
        Anyway, thanks for your consideration, and thanks for opening that
subject. Good latency setting is very important for the things we do, and it
is about time to discuss it thoroughly.


Jason Whorto

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by Jason Whorto » Sun, 09 Dec 2001 16:38:17

Hello.  Is that the yellow one that is a current model?

Thank you,
Jason Whorton


> If you are in a country with ebay, try to locate a 2nd hand LWFF (non-GP)
> You can upgrade it to ball bearings later, which makes it somehow
comparable to
> the MOMO (no leather though)

> JensSchumi

> On Wed, 5 Dec 2001 01:03:38 -0600, "Jason Whorton" <due to spam - please
post

> >Hello.  I am considering the purchase of a PC steering wheel.  Does
anyone
> >have any thoughts on which models to look for or NOT to look for?  I am
> >leaning towards the red Logitech with force feedback (not the MOMO).

> >Thank you,
> >Jason Whorton

> ---------------------------------------------
> LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at:
> http://jensschumi.tripod.com/

> GPLRank: -14.82
> Monsters of GPL: sub 95

J

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by J » Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:02:38

The FF-wheels were all red.
The early LWFF had an all red *** wheel rim, while the later LWFF-GP has a
red/black plastic rim.
The yellow ones were w/o FF

Cya
JensSchumi

On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:38:17 -0600, "Jason Whorton" <due to spam - please post


>Hello.  Is that the yellow one that is a current model?

>Thank you,
>Jason Whorton

---------------------------------------------
LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

GPLRank: -14.82
Monsters of GPL: sub 95

pjgt..

Anyone care to recommend a PC wheel?

by pjgt.. » Tue, 01 Jan 2002 23:55:58

Go to my website (no ads or banners) for a list of some of the many wheel
and pedal set-ups which are available currently...

www.cix.co.uk/~peterpc/home.html

Go to the game hardware section:

8-)

*Peter* -  http://www.cix.co.uk/~peterpc/home.html


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