Thats exactly where something is wrong with LFS physics engine. All FWD cars
feel good, all RWD cars feel just weird... there is no such thing as FWD
physics - a good physics engine MUST handle both FWD and RWD equally good. I
suppose there is a flaw in the tyre model...
Thats why LFS is a great effort and a very enjoyable game, but I wouldnt
call it a sim yet, as someone stated before...
Wojtek
In what way do they feel weird to you? Is there anything in particular that
makes you think there's a problem with the tyre model? Could it be your
setup that's the problem?
I find the caterham-type cars very twitchy and hard to balance, but the
lower powered, lower grip cars feel fine, with a balance and level of grip
comparable with what I would expect from a real car, and tweaking the setup
produces the results I would expect, albeit numbed a little by relatively
heavy weight of the cars compared to gpl or F12k2.
Malc.
Its that sudden loss of rear end traction that was always there in LFS RWD
cars since the beginning that is weird to me. Someone called it the 'driving
on ice' effect with the RWD...
the tyre model?
The LFS tyre model is not bad at all - it feels 'alive' and has some nice
features like the tyre flex etc., but it is too forgiving - its too easy to
catch even very high angle drifts, so I suppose the slip angle curve is
pretty flat. Other than that its that 'driving on ice effect' I mentioned
above... the transition from static friction (adhesion) to sliding friction
is not good IMO. BTW the deformable surface physics are not right (yet?),
but thats really is a hard thing to do (not a single sim got it right with
RallyTrophy beeing the closest...) I dont want to start a discussion about
it, but I think Netkar provides by far more convincing RWD cars than LFS.
Wojtek
LFS, sadly because I wish it weren't true, feels vastly more realistic than
NR2003. All it is missing is damage (or the option to turn damage effects
on). Surprisingly, with ethical racers, even racing with no damage can be a
lot of fun. The track environments have been designed cleverly to punish
the more serious driving indiscretions.
Marc
I know what you mean, I get that feeling in gpl at low speed, and the
caterham type cars in lfs feel even worse. I've never driven a mid-engined
car in real life, and the caterhams have a similar weight distribution (57%
rear or thereabouts) but chucking a BMW 318 pool car about I get a similar
uncomfortable feeling that the rear end lacks grip. I think I'm just used to
having the securely planted rear-end that FWD cars, with their natural
tendancy to understeer (push) under power gives. I find it easier to drive
the RWD lfs cars fast even though they feel a bit 'light', probably more
from my experience with gpl than from real life driving.
Have you ever done any track time, or a skid pan course? When a heavy car
starts to let go it really is pretty hard to recover, and ime lfs compares
well to real life. A relatively heavy car with alot of grip will snap out
quite quickly with a stiff (track) setup. With a softer setup the car is
more forgiving, but ultimately slower. In real life the stiffness of your
setup depends on your bodys ability to cope with the stress, a sim doesn't
have that restriction so you can inadvertantly set the car up in a way that
would be virtually undriveable in real life, and so no, it wouldn't feel
very realistic then.
I do agree that the slides seem easy to catch, but for me it's the best
model I've yet tried. I think the 'driving on ice' feeling in any sim can at
least partly be explained by the lack of G-forces acting on you. Try driving
a well balanced car with little grip (BMW 318 or an old MG, or most bikes)
and I get a similar insecure feeling at the limit of grip. I've never pushed
a car *** gravel or mud in real life, but I don't get the icy feeling in
lfs on dirt, so I guess it's not a bad model.
Malc.
> > > > Thats exactly where something is wrong with LFS physics engine. All
> FWD
> > > cars
> > > > feel good, all RWD cars feel just weird...
> > > In what way do they feel weird to you?
> > Its that sudden loss of rear end traction that was always there in LFS
RWD
> > cars since the beginning that is weird to me. Someone called it the
> 'driving
> > on ice' effect with the RWD...
> I know what you mean, I get that feeling in gpl at low speed, and the
> caterham type cars in lfs feel even worse. I've never driven a mid-engined
> car in real life, and the caterhams have a similar weight distribution
(57%
> rear or thereabouts) but chucking a BMW 318 pool car about I get a similar
> uncomfortable feeling that the rear end lacks grip. I think I'm just used
to
> having the securely planted rear-end that FWD cars, with their natural
> tendancy to understeer (push) under power gives. I find it easier to drive
> the RWD lfs cars fast even though they feel a bit 'light', probably more
> from my experience with gpl than from real life driving.
Stephen
> > > > > Thats exactly where something is wrong with LFS physics engine.
All
> > FWD
> > > > cars
> > > > > feel good, all RWD cars feel just weird...
> > > > In what way do they feel weird to you?
> > > Its that sudden loss of rear end traction that was always there in LFS
> RWD
> > > cars since the beginning that is weird to me. Someone called it the
> > 'driving
> > > on ice' effect with the RWD...
> > I know what you mean, I get that feeling in gpl at low speed, and the
> > caterham type cars in lfs feel even worse. I've never driven a
mid-engined
> > car in real life, and the caterhams have a similar weight distribution
> (57%
> > rear or thereabouts) but chucking a BMW 318 pool car about I get a
similar
> > uncomfortable feeling that the rear end lacks grip. I think I'm just
used
> to
> > having the securely planted rear-end that FWD cars, with their natural
> > tendancy to understeer (push) under power gives. I find it easier to
drive
> > the RWD lfs cars fast even though they feel a bit 'light', probably more
> > from my experience with gpl than from real life driving.
> I have a stock Mazda MX-5. It's hardly a car to set the world on fire
with
> its power-to-weight, but it has caught me out on slick surfaces, despite
20
> years of RWD experience. My parent's old Buick came around so slowly, you
> could make a cup of tea then come back and correct the slide. I lost the
> Mazda on hot tar in Italy this summer (ask Beloki from the Tour de France
> how slick that stuff is...) exiting a fast 3rd gear corner at wide open
> throttle and it was amazing how fast it spun. Despite doing my best
Johnny
> Fast-Hands routine, I didn't have a hope, and this was in a 120hp, 1000 kg
> car. The Caterham has the same tires, 2/3 of the weight and much more
> power. Or, sort of the same power-to-weight as the turbo MX-5 I drove in
th
> e summer. It made *my* MX-5 look like a *** cat. This thing had just
shy
> of 200hp and was down below 1000kg. It would snap sideways in a second
even
> at part throttle. Sort of felt like the LFS model...
> Stephen
I haven't felt *anything* that felt just right on dirt, but then again I
might be a bit picky as I've only driven cars to the ABSOLUTE limit on dirt
with the proper tires(driving fast on a paved country road doesnt count as
the limit) In my GTi, the car feels a bit more comfterable sideways that
straight. When your sideways, the car slows down quite quickly, you can
adjust your car easy with the gas and brake, and the car doesnt feel like
it's getting away from you that much. In LFS, the cars dont slow down
sideways that well, and it's almost a struggle to hold a slide with FWD and
the cars feel like they snap around a bit. Dirt with rally tires (well, the
big blocky oldschool kind I have) feels very progressive and predictable.
Thanks,
Alex
> > I have a stock Mazda MX-5. It's hardly a car to set the world on
> > fire with its power-to-weight, but it has caught me out on slick
> > surfaces, despite 20 years of RWD experience. My parent's
> > old Buick came around so slowly, you could make a cup of tea
> > then come back and correct the slide. I lost the Mazda on hot tar
> > in Italy this summer (ask Beloki from the Tour de France how
> > slick that stuff is...) exiting a fast 3rd gear corner at wide open
> > throttle and it was amazing how fast it spun. Despite doing my
> > best Johnny Fast-Hands routine, I didn't have a hope...
> So tell us, did you total the car or did you get away with it?
Stephen
LOL!
Well, you were lucky.
--
" ..Audi's obsession with the quattro four wheel drive system means that
it'll never quite compete with a well sorted rear wheel drive machine
for ultimate driver satisfaction.. "
-- Tiff Needell, Audi TT Quattro Roadster - Top Gear
I drive a TVR Chimera (which are notoriously back-end happy) and have
taken it round several tracks. The RWD cars in LFS dont feel right to
me either.
steve
