rec.autos.simulators

Hey! I'm a fan of multiplayer racing simulations.  The very concept of an
online Nascar sanctioned series is exciting and it would be enjoyable to
participate, but I gotta' rethink my involvement in the NRO after looking at
TEN's pricing.

After December 31, monthly TEN service is $29.95 PLUS $.95 per hour for local
access numbers.  The latest Papyrus memo from Hawaii implies that because
of latency problems that using a local access number will be necessary to
participate in the NRO.

Let's see.  30 x 12 = $360 plus 5 hours/week x 52 weeks = $250.  That's more
than cable television in most areas. It also appears that Papyrus will have a
separate fee for the NRO that is on top of TEN's fees.  If this thing is as
***ive as Hawaii can be then you better be prepared to spend $500 to $1000+
in 1997 for racing Nascar2.

Are you listening Kali?  Eight player races on Kali might not be as exciting as
30 car jams but I'm going to vote with my wallet.  I don't like being ripped
off.

MPA

Besides, cable tv never made me sweat like Nascar Racing does!

Terry

oh Man! I'd love to spend just that to race in Mplayer mode, but calling
from Italy may cost that for ONE race!
--
Alberto Manassero

The .95 cents per hour is if you use their ISP. My ISP is a flat $16.50
per month so thats not a problem for me.

--
Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA  
RaceTime utility program for Nascar1/Indycar2.  
http://www.metronet.com/~cstuart/

I'm not sure why you feel you are being "ripped off". There are some
expenses involved in providing the service and a company has to make some
money on top of that. Compare $360 per year to the $100 or more per month
that some of us are paying right now in LD charges to dial Hawaii direct.
The leading (bleeding) edge of technology is always expensive.

Dave (davids) Sparks
Late Night League
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Hey, Im not saying there should be NO cost but I agree completely with M
Pete.

I Realize that some of You may save money at this rate and thats fine, My
largest phone bill in a month for just hawaii was around $120.00 and my LD
is 10.2 c/Minute.  That bill cured me in a hurry.  Not that I cant spend
$120 a month for recreation, but thats BS to pay Ten +  NRO + ISP + Online
time + G__ knows what else.  I have a sense of humor but hey, Ill get KALI
on my local ISP and play with my friends in our own league on a local
Internet connection for FREE.  Hey, maybe it isn't 36 players but how many
races are on hawaii.  Some, but late at night when I'm on its not as
active.  Would I play 8 people for next to nothing, sure.  

Another note,  I can tell You from experience, being wrecked at Tdega lap 1
turn 1 with NO hope of repair and NO way to avoid the trouble gets mighty
irritating when you think to yourself, "That 1/7 of a lap just cost me
$xxx.xx"  People are a lot more uptight about getting hosed in a race when
they're paying for it.  If you don't beleive that, just get on hawaii and
wreck someone and see what they say.  Some Examples ---

"This is BS when I paying bla bla bla"
"Whats this guy think, this is free"
"Im never gonna race with that AH again, this is too expensive for that
stuff"

Anyone who has ever been on hawaii has seen this.

In conclusion,  It isn't so much that we can't pay the amounts they want,
On the Internet, We shouldn't have to.

I'm a bit surprised that so many people think that TEN is a "deal" because
it's cheaper than long distance.  To me the argument is the same as somedody
telling me I should be happy to pay $1.50/gallon for gas because Europeans
have to pay $4 or $5.  I just think that the service is overpriced at
$30/month plus hourly charges.  BTW I won't spend $40 for a ticket to a major
league baseball or football game either for the same reason. I understand the
numbers.  It's their business and their pricing decision.  I will vote with my
wallet.

I also think that NASCAR2 is a great value at $50.  Go figure.

MPA

  I run Hawaii approx. 8hrs. per month at $48.00 per month.
  With Ten,Concentric (local) access, and long distance to get the
  "local" access..........................$46.00 per month.

  Using Dave Sparks figure of $100.00 per month and using MY hourly
  long distance charge for calling Concentrics' "local access"number
  It came to 16+ hours per month and monthly bill of....$62.00 per month
  for the same amount of hours he races now.

  In my case for "unlimited" access I spend about the same for the same
amount of time. Dave, however will save around 30 odd bucks. So I would
really get more value if I spend twice as much time racing.
  I just came from Concentrics' web page thinking that if I use them as
an ISP I would save money and a connect charge. No go there. Why?
Concentric has approx 215 local access numbers in various cities. This
amount does not begin to cover the multitude of local phone zones in
the U.S. Unless you live within a local call of their "local access"
number ( I don't) you'll pay an extra per hour LD charge for calling
Concentrics' number. Here, in the suburbs of Sacramento, non-peak time
is approximately $1.05 an hour PLUS .095cents per hour for the "local
access" number from Concentric.
  Now, if  you have a stout ISP with great latency and/or you only
use the "local access" number for NRO races the cost is lessened.
Similarly. if the $14.95 deal (if you sign up this month) is a locked
in deal then you save a bit more.( NRO won't be up a few months so
as far as the savings, I'm not sure).
  I have no idea how to rate an ISP for latency. Does anyone out there
know? I'm not judging either way on this right now. I'm a bit dismayed
at the lack of local access numbers but I'm hoping to find an ISP with
adequate latency. $30.00 is a bit of money..I'll be waiting to see what
I get for it.
Regards,
Greg
Gavel on Hawaii

Actually, you can get the $5/month deal for now and switch it over to
the $15/month unlimited (I called and asked) when NRO is ready.  Even
at these rates it'll be too expensive if the NRO adds an additional
monthly fee though.  

David

*** You're only young once, but you can stay immature forever ***

Do a trace route. Should be less than 13 hops and less than
300ms to be playable.

        ---Wayne

You can complain all you want about what you speculate the price to be,
but noone really knows what it will cost.  We may be very surprised when
they finally release the cost.

David Martin

The primary gripe I have with *** companies is they should offer the
*purchaser/customer* the choice. Hey, sure they're a business and their
motives are profit oriented, but this online 'product' only packaging
currently done under the noble guise of "in the customer interest" is
utterly usurious!

Package LAN AND Online multiplayer and let the customer decide
.....until NASCAR 2, this hasn't been the norm. I don't even object to
paying for the LAN module as an add-on pack..but I do resent it not
being available and I won't buy product anymore that doesn't include it.

Indycar 2, Back to Baghdad ...and sims such as these which would have
been virtually mandatory buying were left on the shelf for this very
reason by myself and many of my friends and co-players.

I'll take 8 player organised LAN play via a 10 Mbps bandwidth pipe
anyday over 28800 *bps* disorganised chaos!

So let the customer choose whether he wants to play in an open 32 player
forum or a closed 8 player group. He can also choose whether he wants to
put up with the performance and limitations of KALI or pay the premium
for the optimised Hawaii/TEN/MP server and additional players if his
medium of choice is the Net. It appears to me these are all totally
seperate potential markets anyway.

Luckily for us in the longer term, I 'predict' <G> as the number of
companies producing racing sims (vs arcade) becomes greater and majority
of customers begin choosing which sim will get their cash & time instead
of buying everything remotely resembling a racing sim which hits the
market place irrespective, companies will be subtly co-erced or 'guided'
into offering these features to capture market share and in competition
for success of their particular sim in the marketplace.
                       *

                        *
                       *

Gotta jump in here.  There IS such a thing as 'gouging" and the "free"
market is only free to the marketers to sell their goods and services for
whatever they can get for them. The "pissers" and the  "moaners" ARE
the market, and  the Demand.  Their voices raised  and pocketbooks
withheld are the only tools they have to influence business.  Pissers and
moaners? Jeez, look at this newsgroup. Software designers (read business)
come here to solicit ways to make their product better.  They recruit beta
testers from here for good reason. These same people listen to the "pissing
and moaning" and make business decision based in part upon it.  

 What correlation is there between financial  ability and being "riff-raff"?
***s come from ALL the social strata. How interesting that you assume
that those who don't take it seriously are going to be eliminated by somehow
outpricing their abilty to pay.  Where in all of the Hawaii logs does it show
the  connection between abilty to afford and causing wrecks online? What
do you base your opinion on?   Further, I've raced with 14 year olds who are
poised and in control on the track and are even League administrators. And
I've raced against  28 year olds who can't make it down a straight away
without weaving like a drunk.
   The point!: Little rich boy will get Dad to sign him on to TEN and be  every
much  riff raff as you think those with less deep pockets are. Familiar? yeah.
Screening they call it in the business world. Discrimination  when applied
here, and by baseless standards to boot. Less able to pay=riff raff?

Who said anything about government funding? How does that relate?

I am. I want more. I am the market.

Regards,
Gavel