Can someone please explain the concept of steering sensivity to me ? I
tried various settings in the RT demo but even I noticed that it was a
difference I just can't put the finger on what. It's the same in F1
2001 and other non-papy sims. I just don't get the sensivity thing,
don't understand the word. Why can't I just be allowed to set the
controller to linear and be done with it ? :)
--
Olav K. Malmin
remove .spam when replying
>Can someone please explain the concept of steering sensivity to me ? I
>tried various settings in the RT demo but even I noticed that it was a
>difference I just can't put the finger on what. It's the same in F1
>2001 and other non-papy sims. I just don't get the sensivity thing,
>don't understand the word. Why can't I just be allowed to set the
>controller to linear and be done with it ? :)
Andre
> >Hi,
> >Can someone please explain the concept of steering sensivity to me ? I
> >tried various settings in the RT demo but even I noticed that it was a
> >difference I just can't put the finger on what. It's the same in F1
> >2001 and other non-papy sims. I just don't get the sensivity thing,
> >don't understand the word. Why can't I just be allowed to set the
> >controller to linear and be done with it ? :)
> When you raise the sensitivity, the steering becomes more..
> ..
> ..
> ..
> sensitive!
> Andre
Example : RT, I set the sensivity to 100%, result; the steeringwheel
on the dash went to full lock with almost not touching the MSFF. I had
to set sensivity near 0 to get the car drivable where full lock on my
MSFF was almost the same as full lock on the dash.
In F1 2001, I had to set sensivity to 100% to get rid of the
non-linear steering feel.
It just doesn't make sence.
--
Olav K. Malmin
remove .spam when replying
>Example : RT, I set the sensivity to 100%, result; the steeringwheel
>on the dash went to full lock with almost not touching the MSFF. I had
>to set sensivity near 0 to get the car drivable where full lock on my
>MSFF was almost the same as full lock on the dash.
>In F1 2001, I had to set sensivity to 100% to get rid of the
>non-linear steering feel.
>It just doesn't make sence.
>--
>Olav K. Malmin
>remove .spam when replying
Andre
But to keep on topic; sensitivity indeed is connected to nonlinearity,
but it can also be directly connected to steering lock. Furthermore, is
the lowest sensitivity the linear steering and the higher sensitivities
go towards 'logarithmic'(TM) (there's a new UBI-coined term for you), or
is the highest sensitivity the linear one and the lowest being
'exponential'(TM)? Or, is linear somewhere in between, making the
dedicated sim racers frustrated as to which point on the infinitely
adjustable slider corresponds to the nirvana of driving a perfectly
linear setup? Are we also perhaps talking of speed sensitivity here, or
maybe nonlinearity coupled with steering lock? The options are endless.
(which brings us to a plea to all developers; please, use explicit
descriptions in configurations instead of vague ones. The unwashed
masses will not know how to configure controls properly anyway, and
making them obscure to the knowledgeable few will not help in them
giving free support to the masses either)
((boy, I feel like I need a beer))
(((these multiple brackets sure are a fun new way to explore the written
word)))
-Gregor
> I was making a joke (allmost as bad Veble's notebook joke), but I
> think sensitivity is the same as lineair/non-lineair indeed.. but now
> you mention the difference between RT and F1 2001 I'm lost too..
> thanks a bunch! :)
> Andre
If you set sensitivity to 100%, the co-driver gets emotional very quickly.
When I broke the lap-record, he started sobbing.
Ice D
--
"Racing! - Science for the action minded."
mark
> But to keep on topic; sensitivity indeed is connected to nonlinearity,
> but it can also be directly connected to steering lock. Furthermore, is
> the lowest sensitivity the linear steering and the higher sensitivities
> go towards 'logarithmic'(TM) (there's a new UBI-coined term for you), or
> is the highest sensitivity the linear one and the lowest being
> 'exponential'(TM)? Or, is linear somewhere in between, making the
> dedicated sim racers frustrated as to which point on the infinitely
> adjustable slider corresponds to the nirvana of driving a perfectly
> linear setup? Are we also perhaps talking of speed sensitivity here, or
> maybe nonlinearity coupled with steering lock? The options are endless.
> (which brings us to a plea to all developers; please, use explicit
> descriptions in configurations instead of vague ones. The unwashed
> masses will not know how to configure controls properly anyway, and
> making them obscure to the knowledgeable few will not help in them
> giving free support to the masses either)
> ((boy, I feel like I need a beer))
> (((these multiple brackets sure are a fun new way to explore the written
> word)))
> -Gregor
> > I was making a joke (allmost as bad Veble's notebook joke), but I
> > think sensitivity is the same as lineair/non-lineair indeed.. but now
> > you mention the difference between RT and F1 2001 I'm lost too..
> > thanks a bunch! :)
> > Andre
> If you set sensitivity to 100%, the co-driver gets emotional very
quickly.
> When I broke the lap-record, he started sobbing.
> Ice D
Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/
Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
> Hard. RT uses the Microsoft 'standard' (for this month) controller
> property sheet, which defines actions. Quite outside the realm of the
> developer by now.
> So where you define what 'throttle' means, it's Microsoft driver
> territory. RT then just says 'gimme the values of 'Throttle''.
> Flexibility none.
Ice D
>> >My plea to developers is to forgo the terms altogether and just give us a
>> >grid to draw our own slopes on. Like CTFJ except infinitely adjustable.
>How
>> >hard would that be?
>> Hard. RT uses the Microsoft 'standard' (for this month) controller
>> property sheet, which defines actions. Quite outside the realm of the
>> developer by now.
>> So where you define what 'throttle' means, it's Microsoft driver
>> territory. RT then just says 'gimme the values of 'Throttle''.
>> Flexibility none.
>Sounds like something they'd better deal with, maybe a patch?
Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/
Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
--
"Racing! - Science for the action minded."
mark
> >> >My plea to developers is to forgo the terms altogether and just give
us a
> >> >grid to draw our own slopes on. Like CTFJ except infinitely
adjustable.
> >How
> >> >hard would that be?
> >> Hard. RT uses the Microsoft 'standard' (for this month) controller
> >> property sheet, which defines actions. Quite outside the realm of the
> >> developer by now.
> >> So where you define what 'throttle' means, it's Microsoft driver
> >> territory. RT then just says 'gimme the values of 'Throttle''.
> >> Flexibility none.
> >Sounds like something they'd better deal with, maybe a patch?
> I doubt it. It's the way of the future in MS' eyes. All I find is it
> is confusing.
> Ruud van Gaal
> Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/
> Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
Well, there is an Official Definition, in SAE J670, Vehicle Dynamics
Terminology:
"Steering Sensitivity (Control Gain) - The change in steady-state lateral
acceleration on a level road with respect to change in steering wheel angle
at a given trim and test conditions."
In the USA, this is traditionally expressed in funny units-
"g's/100 degrees of steering wheel"
It is is often measured near center (at perhaps 0.1 or 0.2 "g" lateral
acceleration) and at highway speeds (50-60 mph). The number is often near
to 1.0 for street cars.
But do game developers do their homework???<grin>
> But to keep on topic; sensitivity indeed is connected to nonlinearity,
> but it can also be directly connected to steering lock. Furthermore, is
> the lowest sensitivity the linear steering and the higher sensitivities
> go towards 'logarithmic'(TM) (there's a new UBI-coined term for you), or
> is the highest sensitivity the linear one and the lowest being
> 'exponential'(TM)? Or, is linear somewhere in between, making the
> dedicated sim racers frustrated as to which point on the infinitely
> adjustable slider corresponds to the nirvana of driving a perfectly
> linear setup? Are we also perhaps talking of speed sensitivity here, or
> maybe nonlinearity coupled with steering lock? The options are endless.
> (which brings us to a plea to all developers; please, use explicit
> descriptions in configurations instead of vague ones. The unwashed
> masses will not know how to configure controls properly anyway, and
> making them obscure to the knowledgeable few will not help in them
> giving free support to the masses either)
> ((boy, I feel like I need a beer))
> (((these multiple brackets sure are a fun new way to explore the written
> word)))
> -Gregor
> > I was making a joke (allmost as bad Veble's notebook joke), but I
> > think sensitivity is the same as lineair/non-lineair indeed.. but now
> > you mention the difference between RT and F1 2001 I'm lost too..
> > thanks a bunch! :)
> > Andre
>Well, there is an Official Definition, in SAE J670, Vehicle Dynamics
>Terminology:
>"Steering Sensitivity (Control Gain) - The change in steady-state lateral
>acceleration on a level road with respect to change in steering wheel angle
>at a given trim and test conditions."
That's a lot of 'e's. ;-)
Game developer love to take shortcuts. :)
Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/
Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
Well then, why not call it steering ratio and be accurate about it?<snort!>
Proper units are:
degrees of steering wheel
---------------------------- = G (the steering ratio)
degrees of front wheel steer
If not linear, then spec the ratio on-center and near the end of the travel
(or something). Bishop Variable Ratio Power Steering for real cars is
something like 16:1 on-center and 6:1 at the ends (iirc) for parking the
car without lots of steering-wheel-winding.
-- Doug Milliken
> >Well, there is an Official Definition, in SAE J670, Vehicle Dynamics
> >Terminology:
> >"Steering Sensitivity (Control Gain) - The change in steady-state lateral
> >acceleration on a level road with respect to change in steering wheel angle
> >at a given trim and test conditions."
> Hm, but then it depends on the tires again, making things much more
> complex and less understandable by the average gamer I think.
> Besides, just applying some logarithmic (or x^3, which I do) to the
> control input is easier, faster, and feels ok. :)
> >In the USA, this is traditionally expressed in funny units-
> > "g's/100 degrees of steering wheel"
> That's a lot of 'e's. ;-)
> >It is is often measured near center (at perhaps 0.1 or 0.2 "g" lateral
> >acceleration) and at highway speeds (50-60 mph). The number is often near
> >to 1.0 for street cars.
> >But do game developers do their homework???<grin>
> Game developer love to take shortcuts. :)
> Ruud van Gaal
> Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/
> Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
